The camera aboad the Japanese ship was someplace along the starboard rail. The Addy Gil was to the starboard of the Japanese ship, The Japanese ship was to the port of tha Addy Gil. The Japanese ship had to turn to the starboard to ram the Addy Gil.

Yes, it clearly shows that the Japanese ship would have passed the "dead at sea" Addy Gil, except the captain of the Addy Gil gunned his engines to put his boat directly into the path of the Japanese ship at the last possible second.

Oh as to the turning thing, if they were then the angles of the railing and the bow of the Addy Gil would change. Yes there is a turn, but it stopped before the 12 second mark of the 43 second clip. At that point it appears as if the ships would pass without hitting although close. I note that 12 seconds into the clip the Addy Gil has no appreciable wake behind it. Starting about then the Captain of the Addy Gil gunned his engines. By 18 seconds in the engines have reached full throttle and there is a significant wake behind the Addy Gil and it appears as if the bow of the Addy Gil has begun to rise. However in that time span the angle of the visible railing and the bow of the Addy Gil has not changed indicating no turn. Collision happens about four seconds later.

Everyone has to reach their own conclusion. Just don't do it off the press releases.

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... about what they are doing. They seek to take food out of the mouth of the sailors aboard the Japanese ship. Try doing that in most any other situation and it is called theft and you know the reaction you will get.

I'm sure the Japanese sailors are far from starving.

If they are like other fisherman, NOT! You yourself even say so.

In the very recent past, the whalers are very much to blame for over exploiting the hunting grounds to the point that there were no whales left to hunt.

No argument, but we might disagree on what recent means.

Note that Sea Shepherd have a completely unblemished record of zero injuries against their opponents in whatever protests.

Really zero injury?! You mean they haven't cost money to their opponents, thus injuring them? News to me. Or did you mean no spilled blood? For that there is always a first time.

I believe they call that, the UN, democracy. One country one vote.

They've also been caught red-handed bribing various countries on the IWC.

I'm shocked, shocked to find that politics is going on in the UN!

... Japanese abide by the limit. Just like any other law abiding fisherman or game hunter.

Is that why most fish stocks are in parlous decline and such as the whales were hunted to the brink of extinction?

Bad limits imposed far too late.

More than just Sea Shepherd have been trying the Japanese politeness game for over 30 years without any positive result.

Positive result is relative.

When 30 years pass, it is time to think outside the box. Perhaps with all those millions buy up the whaling fleet and give the fisherman pensions. In general when you take something away you have to give something in return. Give them a way to save face and they will take it! Stop pounding on the table with your shoe.

... The Japanese are right on one thing though. Some healthy whales need to be taken to be studied. ...

Completely wrong. They are a shallow sham and a total disgrace to any 'pretence' of research and science.

Did I say the Japanese fisherman were doing anything other than catching food? I thought I said everyone knows that is precisely what they are doing.

I said someone needs to catch a representative sample to know what is going on in the healthy wild population. I said the same tests need to be done on them as on the ones that turn up dead.

Regards,
Martin

BTW do you have an issue with the Inuit whale hunters?

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... about what they are doing. They seek to take food out of the mouth of the sailors aboard the Japanese ship. Try doing that in most any other situation and it is called theft and you know the reaction you will get.

I'm sure the Japanese sailors are far from starving.

If they are like other fisherman, NOT! You yourself even say so.

The Japanese whalers are not going to starve. They could make a far better living using their ships and experience to offer tourist trips to watch the whales and to shoot them with nothing more explosive than cameras rather than harpoons.

They can't sell the whale meat they already have in deep freeze. A lot of it gets condemned to be used as pet food. Most of the rest is given away for free for school dinners! And they still have far more than they can sell.

Worldwide, the overexploitation of all fishing grounds, and ridiculous mismanagement looks set to starve us all, with the fishermen ever more quickly putting themselves out of business.

Note that Sea Shepherd have a completely unblemished record of zero injuries against their opponents in whatever protests.

Really zero injury?! You mean they haven't cost money to their opponents, thus injuring them? News to me. Or did you mean no spilled blood? For that there is always a first time.

That's the difference between Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd. Greenpeace is devoted to merely "bearing witness" and hoping that the perpetrators become too embarrassed to continue. Sea Shepherd openly advertises that part of its strategy is to sink the Japanese whalers economically. The same strategy has pretty much brought the Canadian baby seal mass thugfest slaughter to an end.

... Japanese abide by the limit. Just like any other law abiding fisherman or game hunter.

Is that why most fish stocks are in parlous decline and such as the whales were hunted to the brink of extinction?

Bad limits imposed far too late.

The record for that is somewhat dismal. For the latest example:

Atlantic bluefin tuna should be banned internationally: ICCAT scientists
October 29, 2009
... a global ban on Atlantic bluefin tuna fishing is justified. ICCAT meets in November to decide... Classified at Critically Endangered by the IUCN Red List, Atlantic bluefin tuna is primarily sold in Japan for premium sushi. It is a lucrative business: estimated at 7.2 billion US dollars a year. A single fish can sometimes sell for over 100,000 US dollars at the Tokyo Market.

ICCAT fails to protect critically endangered tuna—again
November 15, 2009
The International Commissions for the Conservation of Atlantic Tuna (ICCAT) ignored the advice of its scientists to end fishing of the Atlantic bluefin tuna. Instead ICAAT set a quota of 13,500 tons of fish. ... Quotas are often exceeded and illegal fishing for bluefin tuna takes another huge chunk out of the species' population every year. In the past actual catch rates have been estimated to be double the quotas set. ... if fished at current rates Atlantic bluefin tuna would have only three years before becoming functionally extinct. ...

ICCAT Proves Incapable of Managing Bluefin Tuna and Sharks
...Atlantic bluefin tuna populations are nearing the point of commercial extinction. ICCAT agreed to reduce the fishing quota for eastern bluefin tuna for all Mediterranean and Eastern Atlantic fleets from 22,000 tons to 13,500 tons...

ICCAT slashes bluefin tuna quota
... (ICCAT) voted to set the 2010 eastern Atlantic bluefin tuna quota at 13,500 metric tons, down from 22,000 metric tons in 2009 and 28,500 metric tons in 2008. ... “Today’s outcome is entirely unscientific and entirely unacceptable,” said Dr. Sergi Tudela

Fastest Fish in the Ocean, Speeding Towards Extinction
... the International Commission for the Conservation of Tuna (ICCAT). This commission is as effective in regulating the killing of tuna as the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) was in overseeing the overfishing of Cod off the Newfoundland coast. ...

Note the supposed continuing decline in the catch quotas towards zero. That strongly suggests the present ICCAT policy is to exterminate the tuna, and starve the Japanese fishermen. If their policies of preserving the fishing were working, then the catch quotas should be increasing. Looks like the dismal story of the Grand Banks is being repeated.

The tuna is highly valuable for the Japanese fishing companies. I suspect that the whaling issue is a scapegoat that the Japanese are exploiting to keep Sea Shepherd away from the far more lucrative Japanese tuna fleets...

Whaling as a business for the Japanese has been defunct for a long time. So why all the Japanese subsidies?...

More than just Sea Shepherd have been trying the Japanese politeness game for over 30 years without any positive result.

Positive result is relative.

When 30 years pass, it is time to think outside the box. Perhaps with all those millions buy up the whaling fleet and give the fisherman pensions. In general when you take something away you have to give something in return. Give them a way to save face and they will take it!

That would be a far cheaper alternative, for the whaling issue that is. I suspect that the Japanese have dubious wider concerns...

BTW do you have an issue with the Inuit whale hunters?

None whatsoever when it is one whale that is completely used to support a village for the year.

Industrial whaling where much of the whales caught is dumped overboard and even then the prime cuts go to pet food... And driving the species to a painful extinction... That is a very different and industrial scale of stupidity.


Note that Japan's "traditional" whaling was to exploit a few whales in their local waters. Their industrial whaling of the 20th century quickly wiped out all the whales from their locality...

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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I don't see how increasing a catch quota would increase a fish population. THe last I checked, the more breeding fish you take out of the ocean the less fish that are spawned and less to be caught later. See the Atlantic Cod for information on what happens when quotas are ignored. FIshing until their is none left is an Asian dilemma. Several Asian nations have fleets of ships that will strip a fish population. This is why we have such a problem in Somolia with Pirates. When the Country went into Chaos the asian fleets moved in and cleared cut the fish. now the Seas off the Somolian coast is barren.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I don't see how increasing a catch quota would increase a fish population. THe last I checked, the more breeding fish you take out of the ocean the less fish that are spawned and less to be caught later.

Exactly so.

Assuming that ICCAT at least vaguely acknowledge the situation, then the continued reductions in their stupidly high quotas suggests continuing dire collapse of the fish numbers. I'm sure the quotas would be stupidly bumped up the instant there was any sign whatsoever of any fish population recovery.

I suspect the advice to completely ban all tuna fishing is already too late, and wouldn't be policed in any case...

See the Atlantic Cod for information on what happens when quotas are ignored. FIshing until their is none left is an Asian dilemma. Several Asian nations have fleets of ships that will strip a fish population. This is why we have such a problem in Somolia with Pirates. When the Country went into Chaos the asian fleets moved in and cleared cut the fish. now the Seas off the Somolian coast is barren.

By "Asian" do you mean China?...


Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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viet nam, Thailand, Veitnam, Phillipino, Singaporian, Japanese, and Chinese each have large commercial fish industries. It doesnt take a genius to get the idea of massive fish hauls = dead zones in the oceans. WHat is so shortsighted is that they just don'e understand that they are mortgaging the future fish stocks by over fishing now.

---

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

... about what they are doing. They seek to take food out of the mouth of the sailors aboard the Japanese ship. Try doing that in most any other situation and it is called theft and you know the reaction you will get.

I'm sure the Japanese sailors are far from starving.

If they are like other fisherman, NOT! You yourself even say so.

The Japanese whalers are not going to starve. They could make a far better living using their ships and experience to offer tourist trips to watch the whales and to shoot them with nothing more explosive than cameras rather than harpoons.

I kind of expected this answer from you. Sorry to set you up so badly, but you aren't thinking, you are responding to feelings.

So you say they can pick up a boat load of day tripping whale watching tourists in Tokyo, sail down to Antarctica, spend a couple hours harassing the whales for the camera, then sail back to Tokyo and make money doing it.

What's the fuel cost for a round trip? What is the real transit time for a round trip? How many customers do you think would put up with a whale boat for that length of time?

Or did you think the Australians would throw open their ports in competition with their own countryman and allow them to sail from there?

I think before you do more damage to yourself, you need to disengage your feelings and engage the logic side of your brain.

The problem is much deeper than a press release and it requires outside the box thinking to solve.

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Thailand, Veitnam, Phillipino, Singaporian, Japanese, and Chinese each have large commercial fish industries. It doesnt take a genius to get the idea of massive fish hauls = dead zones in the oceans. WHat is so shortsighted is that they just don'e understand that they are mortgaging the future fish stocks by over fishing now.

Sounds like the same brinksmanship and end-game for fishing as appears to be being played for the industrial pollution of the atmosphere with CO2. So who dares pushing furthest over the brink of a tipping point or two for the sake of political procrastination and another few months of uneducated dirty industrial expansion?

Looks like that area will suffer the same fate as the Canadian Grand Banks, AND we'll be pushed a year or two deeper into Global Warming for the sake of blind short term selfishness.

All very stupid.

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... make a far better living using their ships and experience to offer tourist trips to watch the whales and to shoot them with nothing more explosive than cameras rather than harpoons.

... So you say they can pick up a boat load of day tripping whale watching tourists in Tokyo, sail down to Antarctica, spend a couple hours harassing the whales for the camera, then sail back to Tokyo and make money doing it.

No so sure about the 'day-tripping' bit, it's a bit too far for the Japanese. Shame they wiped out the whales that used to swim around their shores.

Note that it was some of your tourist "day trippers" that found the Japanese whalers (illegally and foolhardily) refuelling in the Antarctic waters and gave away their position to Sea Shepherd.

What's the fuel cost for a round trip? What is the real transit time for a round trip? How many customers do you think would put up with a whale boat for that length of time?

Or did you think the Australians would throw open their ports in competition with their own countryman and allow them to sail from there?

Good questions that highlight how very expensive the Japanese whaling operation is. They certainly ain't whaling for the sake of business or their World War II American imposed 'whaling tradition'...

... The problem is much deeper than a press release and it requires outside the box thinking to solve.

Indeed so.


Sea Shepherd so far are doing an excellent and desperate job of dragging the issue into the world press and politics. Thinking further, what is the overall solution?

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Whaling should be allowed as long as it`s controlled and does not threaten the species. Holy cows do not exist, neither do holy whales. If someone is poaching then they chould be punished for it, but saying that some specific species can never ever be harvested is wrong.
Again, as long as it`s effective - the whole animal, not just fins like with the sharks, or something other equally ridiculous.

IMHO the whole "sea sheperd" gang of maritime hooligans are just that. I`ve seen their show, they are completely arrogant, will unncecessarily risk their lives, and not even help their own comrades in trouble. Funny, but even from their POV they get better treatment when in trouble from the japanese, then they do from themselves. If something happens to them they had it coming. Noone dragged them into this.

Hunting, fishing, whaling, and all other form of harvesting FOOD (a big emphasis on that word) is something that requires both regulation, a humane and an effective approach of taking only what one needs and not causing unnecessary suffering or harm. I`m not siding with the whalers, I am just saying there are ways it all can be done properly.

I`m not a vegetarian, I`ve eaten whale meat on several occasions and I did not like it. It`s like beef, but tastes funny. I have no respect what so ever for any vegans or vegetarians, and have as much underatnding of their agenda as if a tiger or a bear would if they could understand humans and would hear that "all animals have feelings and you should stop eating them because of that".
We are the top predators on this planet, with all the benefits and responsibilities that come with that priviledge.

I`m not a vegetarian, I`ve eaten whale meat on several occasions and I did not like it. It`s like beef, but tastes funny. I have no respect what so ever for any vegans or vegetarians, and have as much underatnding of their agenda as if a tiger or a bear would if they could understand humans and would hear that "all animals have feelings and you should stop eating them because of that".
We are the top predators on this planet, with all the benefits and responsibilities that come with that priviledge.

Right, this thing is all the fault of those crazy vegetarians/vegans and their crazy beliefs. Odd that you're the first person in 30 something posts to mention the word because it's clear that all the Sea Shepherd supporters in this thread believe that "all animals have feelings" and that's the reason for them being vegetarian or vegan.

In all seriousness, thanks, that's got to count as one of the funniest attempts at a flame that I've seen in a long time.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

LOL. I stumbled on a quote from bash.org once... it went something like this:

Person 1: I'm a vegeterian, I help save the enviroment.
Person 2: No you don't, you keep eating all the f****** plants.

I ROFLed.
Vegeterians miss out on the best taste in food. By far.

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- Luke.

Whaling should be allowed as long as it`s controlled and does not threaten the species. Holy cows do not exist, neither do holy whales. If someone is poaching then they chould be punished for it, but saying that some specific species can never ever be harvested is wrong.
Again, as long as it`s effective - the whole animal, not just fins like with the sharks, or something other equally ridiculous.

IMHO the whole "sea sheperd" gang of maritime hooligans are just that. I`ve seen their show, they are completely arrogant, will unncecessarily risk their lives, and not even help their own comrades in trouble. Funny, but even from their POV they get better treatment when in trouble from the japanese, then they do from themselves. If something happens to them they had it coming. Noone dragged them into this.

Hunting, fishing, whaling, and all other form of harvesting FOOD (a big emphasis on that word) is something that requires both regulation, a humane and an effective approach of taking only what one needs and not causing unnecessary suffering or harm. I`m not siding with the whalers, I am just saying there are ways it all can be done properly.

I`m not a vegetarian, I`ve eaten whale meat on several occasions and I did not like it. It`s like beef, but tastes funny. I have no respect what so ever for any vegans or vegetarians, and have as much underatnding of their agenda as if a tiger or a bear would if they could understand humans and would hear that "all animals have feelings and you should stop eating them because of that".
We are the top predators on this planet, with all the benefits and responsibilities that come with that priviledge.

You calling me a hooligan? LOL. What a joke. So you believe it's absolutely fine to kill 850 whales a year for "research"? What other options are there? UN won't rule on it, their too tied up in Afghanistan and America to care. The japs come near our waters and poach our whales? What are we meant to do? I know it's international waters. But, I don't like it.
If I had the opportunity, I'd join the Sea Shepherd's.
Now lets get this straight, I'm no greenie here. I vote who I think suits the role of Prime-Minister. This time round, it was John Key.
I believe in the advancement of highly advanced technology to solve the worlds ecological and environmental problems.
Such as green roofs, renewable energy, carbon capture, storage, and sequestration. I believe in using as little energy as possible. Hell, with all the planting I'm doing on the land I own on the bank below my house to stop the fire prone gorse from growing, I'm actually carbon negative.

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- Luke.

Right, this thing is all the fault of those crazy vegetarians/vegans and their crazy beliefs.

In all seriousness, thanks, that's got to count as one of the funniest attempts at a flame that I've seen in a long time.

Why so emotional? If you`d care to to read my whole post I`m not taking sides with either parties. As far as saying it suprises you and obviously hits a string, then welcome to teh interwebs. Nobody is like you nor does it mean that their oppinion is somehow less worthy than yours.

So you believe it's absolutely fine to kill 850 whales a year for "research"?

You too have serious issues not just reading but understanding what was written:

Hunting, fishing, whaling, and all other form of harvesting FOOD (a big emphasis on that word) is something that requires both regulation, a humane and an effective approach of taking only what one needs and not causing unnecessary suffering or harm. I`m not siding with the whalers, I am just saying there are ways it all can be done properly.

If I had the opportunity, I'd join the Sea Shepherd's.

I won`t stop you. But considering that by watching just one (!) episode I understood that those people may die because their own captain is plain careless and an idiot, I would not reccomend it as much as I would volunteering for the French legion.
To be exact, they sent a zodiac out to intercept a whaler, contact was lost, some crewmembers said please help them but captain ignored that saying chasing another whaler was more important.

They are both attention whores and\or drama queens for the show, and their effect is zero.
South Park has two different episodes dealing with their ilk, I reccomend you to watch those.

So you believe it's absolutely fine to kill 850 whales a year for "research"?

I don`t know, I`m not the authority to issue such permits. If however various nations wish to kill whales for food that is obviously good, but as long as it it done properly so that it does not threaten the species` survival. Being a hunter/fisherman and a poacher is as different as being a farmer and a thief.

The rest of your post I simply can`t comprehend because you go horribly off topic.

... make a far better living using their ships and experience to offer tourist trips to watch the whales and to shoot them with nothing more explosive than cameras rather than harpoons.

... So you say they can pick up a boat load of day tripping whale watching tourists in Tokyo, sail down to Antarctica, spend a couple hours harassing the whales for the camera, then sail back to Tokyo and make money doing it.

No so sure about the 'day-tripping' bit, it's a bit too far for the Japanese. Shame they wiped out the whales that used to swim around their shores.

But you haven't answered the question of how the boat owner is supposed to make his living if he doesn't hunt whales. That is the hard issue.

As I said earlier, Sea Shepherd might better spend its cash buying up the whaling fleet and training the fisherman to do something else to earn a living or just pay them a pension.

Note that it was some of your tourist "day trippers" that found the Japanese whalers (illegally and foolhardily) refuelling in the Antarctic waters and gave away their position to Sea Shepherd.

What's the fuel cost for a round trip? What is the real transit time for a round trip? How many customers do you think would put up with a whale boat for that length of time?

Or did you think the Australians would throw open their ports in competition with their own countryman and allow them to sail from there?

Good questions that highlight how very expensive the Japanese whaling operation is. They certainly ain't whaling for the sake of business or their World War II American imposed 'whaling tradition'...

One trip down and one back isn't the same as daily shuttle service. About 1/365 the cost. In any case you ignore the sale price of the whale. If they were fishing whale weight gold bars I doubt you would say it wasn't good from a business perspective. I don't think the boats are losing money.

... The problem is much deeper than a press release and it requires outside the box thinking to solve.

Indeed so.


Sea Shepherd so far are doing an excellent and desperate job of dragging the issue into the world press and politics. Thinking further, what is the overall solution?

First of course is get the fishermen gainfully employed doing something else!

Longer term is to get rid of wild caught food industries. That brings its own farm problems and conversion of sea acreage into farm acreage, just as has happened on land.

Somewhat longer term is to reduce the planet wide population of humans to a sustainable level. This abates most of the issues.

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First of course is get the fishermen gainfully employed doing something else!

Longer term is to get rid of wild caught food industries. That brings its own farm problems and conversion of sea acreage into farm acreage, just as has happened on land.

Somewhat longer term is to reduce the planet wide population of humans to a sustainable level. This abates most of the issues.

I heard some group "grew" chicken meat from stem cells (?). I can't remember it well, but they said it could eventually replace farming animals. No one ate it so they aren't exactly sure what it tastes like.
I'd be fine eating it as long as it wasn't "made" in china. I don't eat food from china at all now.

I agree with you on the last point. The maximum amount of humans the Earth can sustain well is something like 1 billion (?).

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- Luke.

So you believe it's absolutely fine to kill 850 whales a year for "research"?

I agree........

They have shared 'what' research with the rest of the world?

I don't think, as a scientist, you kill 850 samples of a limited population....to analyze what's going on with them.

What bunk......

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Whales are smart.......maybe not so much as dolphins......

I propose that we arm them with torpedoes. And recognize them in the UN charters.

That would be a grand thing to see.......(or to sea)....a whale able to defend itself against their predators.........

And arm the sharks too, whilst we are at it........no more soup for you.

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

Whaling should be allowed as long as it`s controlled and does not threaten the species.

The whales the Japanese are hunting are agreed worldwide to be endangered to the point of teetering towards extinction. Only one member of the whale family is holding its numbers, and that is still far far lower than what should be expected. As a consequence, squid and other food that the whales prey on are increasing in numbers and shifting the food balance in other areas worldwide.

Again, as long as it`s effective - the whole animal, not just fins like with the sharks, or something other equally ridiculous.

The Japanese whalers dump overboard most of the whale parts. They freeze and store only the "prime" cuts. They have many tons of whale meat festering in deep freeze in Japan. A lot of that goes into tins of pet food.

Hunting, fishing, whaling, and all other form of harvesting FOOD (a big emphasis on that word) is something that requires both regulation, a humane and an effective approach of taking only what one needs and not causing unnecessary suffering or harm.

The whalers use a 'minimum' sized explosive charge to minimise costs and to minimise the risk of spoiling the whale meat. That also means that the whales take over 30 minutes to die by either bleeding to death, internally drowning in their own blood, or drowning due to exhaustion towing the whaler whilst impaled by the harpoon. There's very graphic video and pictures showing examples.

Dumb cattle are treated better.


I agree that there has got to be a better way.

I strongly suspect that the real problem is politics and tuna and other completely unsustainable overexploitation.

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

LOL. I stumbled on a quote from bash.org once... it went something like this:

Person 1: I'm a vegeterian, I help save the enviroment.
Person 2: No you don't, you keep eating all the f****** plants. ...

And the grazing animals eat over x10 the plants and fart a lot of methane to supply what the non-vegetarians eat.

Add into that all the additional (intensive) farming to raise those farm animals...

Good joke!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)