If fire insurance were like health insurance.


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : SETI@home Staff Blog : If fire insurance were like health insurance.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · Next
Author Message
john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922459 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 16:33:18 UTC - in response to Message 922290.

at least Canadians vote more often than Americans! And you must remember that Canada has 4 Providences and their system is built different....



In all fairness to our good neighbors to the north, was Canada recently invaded?
What happened to the other 6 provinces and 3 territories?

zpm
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Apr 08
Posts: 284
Credit: 1,463,651
RAC: 3,198
United States
Message 922466 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 16:55:33 UTC - in response to Message 922459.
Last modified: 30 Jul 2009, 16:57:14 UTC

opps... have i miscounted....!!!?????

yes... crap... i now know that i shouldn't post when I'm heavily medicated....

Eric Korpela
Volunteer moderator
Project administrator
Project developer
Project scientist
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 1084
Credit: 8,265,860
RAC: 7,475
United States
Message 922467 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 16:59:46 UTC - in response to Message 922459.


In all fairness to our good neighbors to the north, was Canada recently invaded?
What happened to the other 6 provinces and 3 territories?


Shhhhh! Don't tell them. Ottawa has been trying to get rid of those trouble makers for years!
____________

Aurora Borealis
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jan 01
Posts: 2975
Credit: 4,947,744
RAC: 1,235
Canada
Message 922496 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 19:38:05 UTC - in response to Message 922467.
Last modified: 30 Jul 2009, 19:38:33 UTC


In all fairness to our good neighbors to the north, was Canada recently invaded?
What happened to the other 6 provinces and 3 territories?


Shhhhh! Don't tell them. Ottawa has been trying to get rid of those trouble makers for years!

Don't worry, our Bush-want-to-be Prime Minister wouldn't even notice the difference until election time.

[rant]
Under the Conservative government Canada's budget went from a yearly surplus that was paying down our national debt to a deficits that will probably wipe out all the gains we had made before they came to power. They cut taxes on the rich and corporations while reducing social services. He sold this to the people by reducing the national sales tax. At first glance this may seem a good thing to the average Joe, but if looked at more closely it just took money away from the treasury and gave it to those with most to spend. All this just as the world was heading into the worst recession since the depression. I'm sure that in the next election they will blame the increased debt on the recession.

Fortunately, previous Liberal governments had put in enough regulations on our financial institutions that Canada is already showing signs of bouncing back faster then most countries.
[/rant]

As for the subject at hand. It is good to be a responsible adult. Unfortunately, for the US, it has spent so much time in the last 50+ years talking about the evils of creeping Communism, that it's population hasn't learned what the rest of the developed world has. With increase wealth comes increased responsibility to the under privileged. It isn't socialism, it's just the right thing to do.

As it stands the majority of American think they have decent health coverage. But, even before the current financial problems in the US, nearly half of bankruptcies were due to health cost which their insurance didn't cover. Uncounted numbers of people lost their home and/or life savings due to accidents or illness. This is virtually unheard of in Canada and other modern industrialized countries with government run health care. My mother, who is 80, spent the last year in hospital recovering from various ailments. It would have bankrupted the entire family if this happened in the US. As it is she can still afford to spend the remaining years of her life in a good nursing home without worrying about being a financial burden to her children.

Why this big worry about health insurance companies going under, when they do quite well in other countries supplying supplementary insurance. I would think people would be more worried about how they missrepresent the coverage, refuse to pay claims and cutoff anyone that might cost them money.

I had to laugh when I researched the Republican scare ads featuring Shona Holmes deploring the Canadian health system. The fact is that she is in the process of suing the Ontario government with the aid of a right wing group opposed to our health system. Her so called brain tumor was actually a Rathke's cleft cyst, a serious condition effecting vision but hardly a life threatening one. She decided not to wait for treatment in Canada but to pay for treatment in Arizona. I guess that's what you do when you feel entitled to jump the queue and have the money to do it. If that is the worst case they can come up with to put down the Canadian health system they might as well stop trying now.

john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922503 - Posted: 30 Jul 2009, 20:30:56 UTC - in response to Message 922496.

Who exactly are the so called "under privilged" by the way? Are you talking about the inner city youth in this country who have all sorts of loans and grants available to them, but would rather join a gang and commit crimes than show some ambition. Even Obama agree's with that one.

Most of the bankruptcies and foreclosures I am aware of were do to sub-prime lending. My father is 87 and has had 2 knee replacements and 1 hip replacement paid for by medi-care and supplemental insurance. The 'normal' cap on most private insurance is 1 million dollars, granted private companies do have a problem with anything considered 'experimental' but I do not know of too many people that have had a problem with main-steam medical care. I think things are being exaggerated by the liberal point of view.

I recently heard a famous comedian comment on the fact that when he does banquets, roasts, ect. and makes conservative jokes about conservatives, they almost all laugh and take it in stride, when he makes jokes at a liberal function thier mouths all drop open as if they were personally insulted. Why do you think this is?

Aurora Borealis
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jan 01
Posts: 2975
Credit: 4,947,744
RAC: 1,235
Canada
Message 922569 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 2:12:34 UTC

I really don't think that this is the forum to engage in socio-political debate, but in answer to your comments...

We do have many of the same problems in our major cities, they just aren't as ghettoized or as severe as they are in the US. The difference is that instead of turning our backs on the problem or just blaming the kids that have to grow up in a bad environment, we view it as a failure of the community and the educational system. We don't have as great a discrepancies of quality of education between our schools but we continue to look at what can be done to reduce the number of kids that fall though the cracks.

As for the million dollar insurance cap, good luck. That's the same cap the insurance industry had in 1970's. I hope it's for 100% coverage with no deductible and a no cut clause. Few people can afford full coverage. Here are a few stats to ponder. The median wage in the US is just above $30,000. Minimum wage range from $12,000 to 15,000 depending on were you live. These days it can costs as much as $20,000 for a week stay in a hospital. A visit to emergency can easily reach $500 to $1000.

In the US 60% get insurance though employer, 9% buy directly, 28% through government agencies. That leaves 40 million people with no coverage, that's more than the population of Canada.

As a Canadian, you are covered. You don't need a credit card to call an ambulance, you get to choose your doctor not just the one your HMO approve of. Your doctor doesn't need a third party's approval before starting a procedure. You don't have to chase insurance companies to pay up. The bill you get says $0.00 owing, you only get it to keep the billing honest. We live longer and have lower infant mortality rate.

Our taxes are slightly higher than the US but so are the salaries including minimum wages. Every worker as a guaranteed 2 week paid vacation. You can get sick or take maternity/paternity leave and not risk getting fired. Our cost of living is comparable to the US, companies are still making profits and our economy is generally more stable.

P.S. Just so you don't think I'm in the habit of pulling numbers out of the air, without researching them, I'll direct you to these articles on health related bankruptcy. Health Affairs and Business Week.

Profile Bill Walker
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Sep 99
Posts: 3330
Credit: 1,957,850
RAC: 2,265
Canada
Message 922642 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 12:21:09 UTC - in response to Message 922569.

Right on AB! The True North Strong and (relatively) Free!
____________

john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922690 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 16:46:26 UTC - in response to Message 922569.

Comparing Canada to the U.S. is apples and oranges. This forum was started to debate health care reform so back to the subject at hand.

I have private insurance,it pays 80 percent with a maximum out of pocket expense of 2500 dollars per year, after that it pays 100 percent to a maximum of 1 million dollars per year. 2500 dollars in one year will not bankrupt me. 1 million dollars per year may not cover 100 percent of the population, but I bet it would cover the vast majority, yet you say "good luck". As I said before you slant everything to the liberal view.

I have come up with a way to pay for health reform in the U.S. it's very simple, all we have to do is eliminate 2 things, Foreign Aid and Defense Spending. In 2007 the U.S. doled out 41.9 billion dollars to feed and clothe the world, no other country even came close. The U.S. provided 20 percent of all foreign aid. Is our Gross National Income 20 percent of the entire world, I think not!

Lets look at defense spending, for this year it was 651.2 Billion dollars. I went to a large airshow last week-end and saw the new F-22 Raptor in action. It is quite the awesome machine (bring ear-plugs) To bad Canada does'nt have any, but then, you will not need any, because Canadians know that if anything really bad happens, we will protect you, we always have. Lets not forget Europe, people from Europe fall into 2 catagories, those whose ass we saved and those whose ass we kicked. Except Great Britain of course (they can take care of themselves.)

So to sum up, all we have to do is get rid of those 2 things, but then who would feed,clothe and protect the rest of the world? Nobody that's who. JUST US!

Eric Korpela
Volunteer moderator
Project administrator
Project developer
Project scientist
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 1084
Credit: 8,265,860
RAC: 7,475
United States
Message 922704 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 17:24:00 UTC - in response to Message 922690.
Last modified: 31 Jul 2009, 17:25:57 UTC


I have private insurance,it pays 80 percent with a maximum out of pocket expense of 2500 dollars per year, after that it pays 100 percent to a maximum of 1 million dollars per year.


The larger, and perhaps more important questions are 1) What is the lifetime maximum? 2) How much in expenses can you have before they decline to renew your policy? 3) Have you ever tried to use it through a major illness? 3) Since heath insurance rates are doubling every three years, how much longer will you be able to afford your insurance? 4) Since most people get their insurance through their employers, how much more increase can the employers stand before they start dropping health insurance as a benefit? When it reaches 25% of total payroll expenses? 50%?


2500 dollars in one year will not bankrupt me.


I know. You're probably paying at least half that per month for your insurance. In a couple years you'll be paying that every month. Doing nothing is not an option.

You are right, it would take far less money to provide health care to everyone than we currently spend on defense (which is more than the rest of the world spends, combined). I'm all for giving up our role as the world's police man. I think the rest of your party would disagree with you on reducing defense spending, though.

However, you are wrong about our GDP. In 2008, the U.S. GDP was 23.5% of the world total (according to the IMF). The CIA estimates it was only 23%, though. The numbers I can find for foreign aid are 26 billion for last year (with Israel and Egypt the biggest recipients). I have no problem cutting off non-humanitarian foreign aid (which is most of it). Your party might agree to cut aid to Egypt, but would insist of providing cash to Israel.

Most U.S. foreign aid doesn't go to feed and clothe the world. It goes to arm the world. But foreign aid is small potatoes, typically at less than half a percent of the budget. You can't balance the budget by reusing paper clips.
____________

john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922721 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 18:55:38 UTC - in response to Message 922704.

No, I am actually only paying 600 dollars a month for health insurance far less than half, but my employer pays far more, I am lucky. I see your point at where will enough be enough.

My figure of 20 percent of all foreign aid was for 2007 not 2008, of that 41.9 billion 27 billion was humanitarian the rest military.Some other interesting facts, in 2005 the U.S. gave 122.8 billion in foreign aid coming from private foundations,corporations,voluntary organizations,universitys,religious organizations and individuals.In 2005 U.S. Foundations gave more in money,time,goods, and expertise than 11 of the 22 developed countrys governments. U.S. private voluntary organizations totaled more than the govs of Japan,United Kingdom,Germany and France. BY the way, of 41.9 billion, 14.9 billion in military aid does not seem like most of the aid on my calculator. This can all be checked at www.america.gov/st/develop-english/2007/May/20070524165115zjsrednao.2997553.html But you are right, foreign aid is small potatoes.

AS far as giving up being the worlds police man I am all for it too,do not tell anyone from my party, I will be an outcast. Like I said, who will protect these people if we do not,no one. And there is things out there to be protected from, so lets not go there.

I guess I am beginning to be swayed by your point of view, maybe socialized medicine is the way to go. You can be proud now, you have ruined a perfectly good conservative. Perhaps take the wife out tonight and do a little bragging!

Time to go mow the lawn, have a nice day.

Grant (SSSF)
Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 5685
Credit: 56,128,838
RAC: 48,856
Australia
Message 922759 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 20:41:53 UTC - in response to Message 922721.


Talk about coincidence.
Dan on Americans & their Health system. Actually it's a bit of a look at why it is the way it is, why it hasn't changed much, and why it's unlikely to change. It also includes some references to other reading material.
____________
Grant
Darwin NT.

Profile Robert Waite
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 23 Oct 07
Posts: 2195
Credit: 5,338,890
RAC: 4,959
Canada
Message 922789 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 22:32:34 UTC - in response to Message 922690.


To bad Canada does'nt have any, but then, you will not need any, because Canadians know that if anything really bad happens, we will protect you, we always have. Lets not forget Europe, people from Europe fall into 2 catagories, those whose ass we saved and those whose ass we kicked. Except Great Britain of course (they can take care of themselves.)


You have always protected us?
Which invasion of Canada did America ever stop? The only time Canada was ever invaded was by Americans in 1812, and we all know the outcome of that little adventure.

While American military spending may be 6 times that of the rest of the world combined, keep this in mind, we send energy south. Without our natural gas, oil and electricity you'd be hooped. We turn off the taps and you grind to a halt very quickly.

Can we now end our nationalistic rants?



Profile Bill Walker
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 4 Sep 99
Posts: 3330
Credit: 1,957,850
RAC: 2,265
Canada
Message 922797 - Posted: 31 Jul 2009, 23:01:42 UTC - in response to Message 922789.
Last modified: 31 Jul 2009, 23:05:00 UTC

Be quiet Robert! Look what happened to Iraq when the US figured out they needed the oil!

Oh, and about invasions. You forgot the Fenians in the 1840s. They were an Irish terrorist organization, based in and largely funded by the US. We whupped their a$$ too.
____________

john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922818 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 0:52:58 UTC - in response to Message 922789.


To bad Canada does'nt have any, but then, you will not need any, because Canadians know that if anything really bad happens, we will protect you, we always have. Lets not forget Europe, people from Europe fall into 2 catagories, those whose ass we saved and those whose ass we kicked. Except Great Britain of course (they can take care of themselves.)


You have always protected us?
Which invasion of Canada did America ever stop? The only time Canada was ever invaded was by Americans in 1812, and we all know the outcome of that little adventure
.

While American military spending may be 6 times that of the rest of the world combined, keep this in mind, we send energy south. Without our natural gas, oil and electricity you'd be hooped. We turn off the taps and you grind to a halt very quickly.

Can we now end our nationalistic rants?

Come on boys,if we had not entered the war in 1941 you would all be speaking German right now, I think most Americans would agree with that. I did not mean to hurt your feelings, but the facts are the facts. You live under the very blanket of freedom the U.S. military provides. Do you have anything to match the F-22 Raptor? Of course you don"t. Why? Because we will protect you. I was simply trying to put forth some of the reasons we do not have the money for health care reform. But, take it easy you have a wonderfull health care system. I wish we had the money for it but we are to busy paying to protect everone else. Buy the way, do you think Canada could have defeated the Germans in WW11?


john
Send message
Joined: 1 Jun 09
Posts: 15
Credit: 43,205
RAC: 0
United States
Message 922869 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 3:18:38 UTC - in response to Message 922818.

While American military spending may be 6 times that of the rest of the world combined, keep this in mind, we send energy south. Without our natural gas, oil and electricity you'd be hooped. We turn off the taps and you grind to a halt very quickly.


Are you serious? I do believe we pay for this energy!!! I would have expected a little more from a Canadian than threats. But then thats what we Americans get for graditude. It's ok, we will still protect you and all other people who can not defend themselves! Better than taking care of ourselves, why?, because it is the right thing to do.

Eric Korpela
Volunteer moderator
Project administrator
Project developer
Project scientist
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 3 Apr 99
Posts: 1084
Credit: 8,265,860
RAC: 7,475
United States
Message 922871 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 3:28:56 UTC - in response to Message 922789.
Last modified: 1 Aug 2009, 3:29:27 UTC


The only time Canada was ever invaded was by Americans in 1812, and we all know the outcome of that little adventure.


You might find out that many Americans don't know the outcome of that little adventure. Or at least have a different interpretation of the outcome.
____________

zpm
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 25 Apr 08
Posts: 284
Credit: 1,463,651
RAC: 3,198
United States
Message 922873 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 3:34:47 UTC - in response to Message 922871.
Last modified: 1 Aug 2009, 3:35:08 UTC


The only time Canada was ever invaded was by Americans in 1812, and we all know the outcome of that little adventure.


You might find out that many Americans don't know the outcome of that little adventure. Or at least have a different interpretation of the outcome.


the forgotten war of 1812... there's only one page that mentions it in my us history class back in 05'..... sort-of why it's forgotten by most......

Grant (SSSF)
Send message
Joined: 19 Aug 99
Posts: 5685
Credit: 56,128,838
RAC: 48,856
Australia
Message 922877 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 3:49:40 UTC - in response to Message 922869.

But then thats what we Americans get for graditude. It's ok, we will still protect you and all other people who can not defend themselves! Better than taking care of ourselves, why?, because it is the right thing to do.

If America did things because it was the right thing to do, i'm sure they'd get more gratitude for it.
For those of us outside the US it would appear the only time you're prepared to do the right thing is when it involves something you consider strategic. eg oil, or suppressing a perceived threat.
____________
Grant
Darwin NT.

Profile popandbob
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 19 Mar 05
Posts: 535
Credit: 1,896,421
RAC: 0
Canada
Message 922884 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 4:17:45 UTC - in response to Message 922690.

Lets look at defense spending, for this year it was 651.2 Billion dollars. I went to a large airshow last week-end and saw the new F-22 Raptor in action. It is quite the awesome machine (bring ear-plugs) To bad Canada does'nt have any, but then, you will not need any, because Canadians know that if anything really bad happens, we will protect you, we always have. Lets not forget Europe, people from Europe fall into 2 catagories, those whose ass we saved and those whose ass we kicked. Except Great Britain of course (they can take care of themselves.


There has been no war that the Americans have protected the Canadians.
You have a very sad knowledge of Europe. There are hundreds of countries in europe... How many were defeated with the help of the USA? Three. Germany, Italy, and Austria-Hungary. The US has NEVER defeated anyone without help.

Its funny you should mention defence spending... The USA spends lots more on its Military but how much of a deficit do they have? How much is that deficit growing each year thanks to the huge military spending?

Bob
____________


Do you Good Search for Seti@Home? http://www.goodsearch.com/?charityid=888957
Or Good Shop? http://www.goodshop.com/?charityid=888957

Aurora Borealis
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 14 Jan 01
Posts: 2975
Credit: 4,947,744
RAC: 1,235
Canada
Message 922887 - Posted: 1 Aug 2009, 4:29:13 UTC

I too would like to know who the US protected Canada from. We have always had good relations with most nations including the USSR. The only treat posed to Canadian sovereignty was that we were between the USSR and US. We only needed to make sure that war didn't break out between the two ideological extreme. A role that Canada has become very adept at.

I guess a short history lesson is required here. In fact for years Canada was the one protecting the US with the DEW line and the deployment of Bomarc missile in Canada. The radars were a useful early warning system, but the rocket probably couldn't have hit the side of a barn, let alone bombers with fighter escorts. As an aside, I view this action as one of the single most idiotic decision ever made by a Canadian Prime Minister. The agreement to deploy the missiles included a US demand (probably at the urging of Boeing) that we scrap the development of what would have been the most advanced jet fighter of the time the Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow. It also put an end of our aerospace industry which had flourished during WWII. Most of the top engineers eventually ended up at NASA.

I've always found it interesting that the US like to think of itself as policing the world. The only time US forces were used in the last 60 years that I could consider police action was liberating Kuwait with UN forces and the current action against Somali pirates. As far as I can recall, most other use of US military has been to either to prevent or force regime change.

Canada on the other hand more or less invented the role peace keepers originally at the Suez canal. Over the years our troops have been deployed world-wide and have been stationed in that role in many places, including Syria, Haiti, Guatemala, Egypt, Cyprus, Korea, Cambodia, Kuwait, Central Africa among others. Our role in picking up the pieces and holding the fort in Afghanistan shouldn't need to be stated.

Another point of view of the US involvement in WWII, despite what may be in your history books or seen in the John Wayne movies, This was for the most part an economic decision. The Germans made the mistake of attacking the US merchant ships supplying England. The US had no intentions of getting involved in this war, but found a need to protect the growing, and very profitable supply lines from the States. It is true that it probably shorten the war, and may have turned the tide, but the motive was capitalistic not humanitarian. They weren't out to save Europe or the Jews, it was to protect their market.

Previous · 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · Next

Message boards : SETI@home Staff Blog : If fire insurance were like health insurance.

Copyright © 2014 University of California