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Message 435372 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 0:19:44 UTC - in response to Message 435350.  

Let me ask you this then, What created the creator?


The creator CREATED the whole concept of creation you speak of. In order for our universe to exist there must be a universe without decay.

Read up on Plato.

I'm not religious, just a spiritual, neoplatonic monist.


and didnt they just decide to admit unbaptised babys into heaven ?
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Message 435386 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 0:41:41 UTC - in response to Message 435330.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 0:44:35 UTC

We create gods and religions [snip]

Why do you insist on putting a WE tag on all YOUR 'opinions'? ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 435388 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 0:42:02 UTC

No, knightmare. Didn't you read? I said why:
You can't understand anything that doesn't fit into your little world either.



And the more Susan talks, the more frightening she becomes - really - this made up garbage about one group evolving, yet another being 'created'?!?!?!?

Look out Walla! You're posting from 'The Demon Haunted World' here in the religious thread! Bringing logic and wisdom in here will get the credulous and faithful against you! Oh my.....

Next jeffrey will take one little snippet of something YOU wrote, having nothing to do with him, and turn it around, utterly misrepresenting it like the best shock-journalism sound byte editor. I sure hope that most of the readers in here can see right through him. But given the quality of what I see posted in here, there's not many of us.
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Message 435393 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 0:54:45 UTC

Sounds like it's time for someone to go off and say their 5 'hail carls' and 5 'our sagans'...

Hallowed be thy name! ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 435395 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 0:57:16 UTC
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 0:59:34 UTC

'And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.' Chap.19, verse 18, Exodus.
It is interesting whenever I read the Old Testament, just how much detail goes into what Yahweh's spaceship is capable of. It appears to have enormous firepower, it is a war ship of the highest calibre. It is also powerful enough to part the waters that allowed the Israelites to escape their Egyptian captors. Yet the Bible conveniently leaves out any detail about how this war vessel was constructed. And that may well be deliberate.
I have heard that parts of mount Sinai is off limits to the public. If that is true what are they hiding up there I wonder? Evidence of alien visitation perhaps? Is is another Area 51?
Yahweh was a scientist, a genetitist, a warlord, a space traveller. What more could a man want? But his project has failed. Will he return to take his chosen people away?
Time will only tell.

Goodnight.
'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Message 435458 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 3:44:03 UTC - in response to Message 435395.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 3:44:45 UTC

Susan,

Will he return to take his chosen people away?


By now, people are probably unsure of what I think with regards to religion.
I will say this. I do not believe the interpretation you are providing. Why? Because it promotes things such as ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism is akin to a limited view of the complex things in our world and the universe in general. We might as well go back to believing the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the Earth, etc. ... . Furthermore, since a large percentage of people in the world are not Hebrews, then by your theory, a lot of us are screwed! Last, look at an example of people who thought they were the chosen ones from the 20th century: the Japanese during the times leading up to and during WWII.
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Message 435468 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 3:59:57 UTC - in response to Message 435135.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 4:26:41 UTC

Sarge 2 sure has posted alot for someone who hasn't got the time


That is easily explained. First, a fair portion of what I posted was cut and paste, as I clearly indicated. You can also see a fair amount of time went by between my first post and the ones later at night (my time). So, second, I was still energetic after having done a lot of work and had difficulty falling asleep. I got up and posted more. I would not, on the other hand, been able to produce more work in relation to my dissertation at that time of night.

I had a Calculus professor, Novotny, in College who made it a point that he couldn't present us with any equation at all without working it out from the barest of principles to proove it correct. Nothing he gave us was possibly full of merde! It all fit into the real world and was provable so far as I understood it. (I could have been mistaken).


Yes, the barest of principles. But, it is not just the application of deductive reasoning, but applying it within an axiomatic system. I think this might be becoming clearer now? What I have been trying to get at all this time is what can one really accept as proof in this discussion of religion (and science).

Perhaps the axiom you might be talking about is the set of modifications you make to the math you are using? In other words, the 'clock arithmetic' you present is under a different set of rules than the basic 'apples for children'. We should not need to qualify the basic one, but we do need to qualify the clock one, otherwise, we run under a different set of assumptions about how the math is carried out. If this is the case (As I am NOT anywhere near a doctorate in Maths), then I will accept that operational definition of 'assumption'.


Dealing with working with an axiomatic system takes cognitive maturity. Certainly, kids should work at first with what is within the realm of their experience. (Clock arithmetic is not out of their experience, though. I have seen 9th-10th graders deal with it.) At some point, the assumptions do need to be made clear. Again, the mathematical community did see a need to axiomatize the stuff related to counting and arithmetic. As I said, I'd have to look it up, if time allows, to explain anything about it.

btw, I immediately saw that
Define straight for me.
is easily defined and can be PROVEN: the shortest distance between two points. If you want to try and prove me wrong by modifying or bending the surface you're talking about, realize that you're pulling a philosopher's stunts just to be a smart-ass: if you want to change the real-world conditions, then we have to re-answer for that new special case.


Something defined does not get proved. I am about to get kicked out of a coffee shop b/c it is about to close for the night or I would elaborate a little further.

However, I will say it does indeed refer to what the surface is. There's no involvement of being a smart-ass or pulling a philosopher's stunt. (BTW, guess who the first geometers/mathematicians and developers of axiomatic systems and deductive proof? Philosophers! Ones who got sick of the circular arguments used by their peers, the Sophists.)

Only an idiot is utterly suprised to find that a pencil makes a mark on a paper today just as it did yesterday. (Douglas Addams' "ruler of the universe").


Adams (one d) is great! However, I will take it on faith that digital watches are still pretty neat and little green slips of paper, on the whole aren't the ones that are unhappy. (Now, this last paragraph was me being a smart-ass!)
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Message 435477 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 4:40:10 UTC
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 4:40:39 UTC

Now that I am home, I will post one more thing. Hopefully, I can get a good night's sleep so I can work hard tomorrow and complete one big task on which I have been working.

Consider this. Earth is not the center of the universe. It revolves around the sun. The solar system is in the armpit of the Western Spiral Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy (another Adams reference). The Milky Way Galaxy is an average one among many others.

We are small. Insignificant. Imperfect. (No, I do not think we will not work out all the things that are mysteries to science now in a few thousand years. It is not in our capacity, I believe, now or ever. I doubt most scientists function under that assumption. The most we can hope for are theories/models that allow for increasingly better explanations/predictions.)

If you accept evolution as a premise (and all you can do, if you aren't a scientist performing an extensive literature review on it or doing research it, is accept or not accept it), then we came from lifeforms we would consider insignificant ... dirty. ([humor on]Think "Planet of the Apes."[/humor off]) So, we too are insignificant. We should be humble.

If you accept that a creator exists and if you accept some portion of the Genesis story ... that Adam was created from something like dirt and clay ... then we are insignificant ... dirty.

Weird parallel, huh?
Rather than suggest that all followers of all religions follow out of fear, why not consider the possibility that they do so out of recognition of their insignificance? If you accept that God exists, one that cares, that's pretty stunning in light of our insignificance. (Too bad some religious people do not follow the admonitions to be humble.)

With that said, hopefully I will be asleep soon!
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 435604 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 13:30:03 UTC

My bachelor's degree is in Psychology, simply because I couldn't pass Integral Calculus to get through Pure & Applied Science.

People who insist they didn't come from a monkey, like in that thoroughly pathetic song, are just insisting from an emotional basis and ignoring the truth because it frightens/repulses them. There is proof that humans evolved from monkeys, and before them, shrewlike animals, and before them, reptiles with mammalian characteristics, and before them, true reptiles, and before them, amphibians, and before them, lung-fish, and before them, jawless fish, and before them, simple notochord fish, and before them, sea squirt analogues, and before them...I would have to get my old textbook here...

There is nothing 'dirty' about this. It is a fact. If someone has some hang-ups about animals, well, that's their little idiotcyncracy.

It just staggers me that people go on insisting something is black when it's demonstrably white. I have no patience at all for such morons. They hold back scientific progress, they hold back the human species, they promote their ignorance to children (and adults as well) that don't know any better, and they cause wars and death in the name of their particular version of 'god' being the one true one.
Religion is a scourge on humanity. What do we do with scourges? Why haven't we done it to religion (not the religious)? Why do world leaders insist on perpetrating something so bad for humanity - because it's great for those leaders seeking election and control of their voting populace? Shows you how greedy and self-serving the prix are.

Religion is nothing but a croc, and a dangerous one at that.

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Message 435759 - Posted: 13 Oct 2006, 20:57:47 UTC - in response to Message 435458.  
Last modified: 13 Oct 2006, 21:03:16 UTC

Susan,

Will he return to take his chosen people away?


By now, people are probably unsure of what I think with regards to religion.
I will say this. I do not believe the interpretation you are providing. Why? Because it promotes things such as ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism is akin to a limited view of the complex things in our world and the universe in general. We might as well go back to believing the Earth is flat or that the Sun revolves around the Earth, etc. ... . Furthermore, since a large percentage of people in the world are not Hebrews, then by your theory, a lot of us are screwed! Last, look at an example of people who thought they were the chosen ones from the 20th century: the Japanese during the times leading up to and during WWII.


The Old Testament is certainly an ethnocentric book as it deals with the history of the Jewish people. However, I would like to say before going further that in no way am I anti-semitic or anti any other race of people. I have tried to read the Old Testament at face value, without any philosophy, without any attempt to find hidden meanings in the text.
Yahweh certainly seems to be a very ethnocentric god. He had no interest in the Gentiles. He put his people through a great deal of suffering as they wandered forty years in the wilderness. His people were of a genetically superior breed - at least to begin with. But as the centuries passed, they probably inter bred with other races, breaking the taboo against relations with Gentile groups. As a result they became much more like the humans of today. For one thing their life spans declined rapidly to the levels we know. The earliest Jewish people possessed very long life-spans it seems.
Today the Jewish peoples have assimilated to the point where both Jews and Gentiles are indistinguishable.
I understand these theories are controversial, that is why I must stress that I am not anti-semitic. As it is I have a great deal of admiration for the Jewish people. They are very intelligent, but it is impossible to discuss the Old Testament without making reference to them.
It is likely that IF Yahweh did return, he would not be able to distinguish between Jew or Gentile anyway. But that is a very big IF. An enormous pill to swallow I know. But this is how I have read the Old Testament, how it appears to my interpretation. And how fascinating it is, that a book that once took us away from science, can also lead us back to it in the most amazing way.

'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
Eleanor Roosevelt.
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Message 435826 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 0:06:07 UTC

In no way, Susan, did I mean to suggest you were for or against one race or another.

I do not believe the Old Testament led us away from science. It did not attempt to address science and the sciene of the time, though it allowed for the creation of the pyramids and some other things, was generally primitive.

What complicated the relation of religion and science was small-minded, humanocentric people, who branded as heretics those that suggested the world was essentially a sphere, that the Earth revolves around the sun and so on ... . Several centuries later, these are now generally accepted facts. Yet new battles and confusions rage: evolution, the Big Bang and stem cell research, to name a few.

BTW, to Chuck, after examining the link you provided to landoverbaptist.org, it is pretty clear the site is meant to be a farce. The stuff there is both funny and sad. Some people do think along the lines suggested there, like those that protest at funerals of American soldiers killed in Iraq, suggesting that they were allowed to die b/c gay marriages have been allowed in some part of the U.S. Those people are an incredibly small minority, as are the people that believe much or any of the "correct" answers provided in that "Bible quiz."
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 435847 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 0:33:36 UTC - in response to Message 435826.  

In no way, Susan, did I mean to suggest you were for or against one race or another.

I do not believe the Old Testament led us away from science. It did not attempt to address science and the sciene of the time, though it allowed for the creation of the pyramids and some other things, was generally primitive.

What complicated the relation of religion and science was small-minded, humanocentric people, who branded as heretics those that suggested the world was essentially a sphere, that the Earth revolves around the sun and so on ... . Several centuries later, these are now generally accepted facts. Yet new battles and confusions rage: evolution, the Big Bang and stem cell research, to name a few.

BTW, to Chuck, after examining the link you provided to landoverbaptist.org, it is pretty clear the site is meant to be a farce. The stuff there is both funny and sad. Some people do think along the lines suggested there, like those that protest at funerals of American soldiers killed in Iraq, suggesting that they were allowed to die b/c gay marriages have been allowed in some part of the U.S. Those people are an incredibly small minority, as are the people that believe much or any of the "correct" answers provided in that "Bible quiz."


The site 'landoverbaptist.org' I don't remember providing a link to that. Can someone please point that out to me on one of my posts? If I have done I must have a pretty bad memory. You have made me curious now. I shall go into that site myself to see what it's all about. I gave references to passages in the Bible; I think that's about it. Anyway, it sounds like a pretty sad sight with a pretty sad bunch of people. Thanks for letting me know.


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Message 435869 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 1:35:32 UTC - in response to Message 435826.  

BTW, to Chuck, after examining the link you provided to landoverbaptist.org ...


Susan, you did not post the link. Chuck did.

BTW, also to Chuck, you have mentioned both Cosmos and The Demon Haunted World several times. I watched and read Cosmos several years ago and I do not recall Sagan ever discussing religion in Cosmos. I glanced through portions of The Demon Haunted World once, for 1-2 hrs., a year or two ago and maybe someday I can read the whole thing.

(I grew up 30 miles from Cornell, where Sagan was a professor, and had strongly considered during middle school becoming an astronomer.)
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Message 436092 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 13:55:34 UTC - in response to Message 435869.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2006, 13:57:14 UTC

BTW, to Chuck, after examining the link you provided to landoverbaptist.org ...


Susan, you did not post the link. Chuck did.

BTW, also to Chuck, you have mentioned both CoI watched and read Cosmos several years ago and I do not recall Sagan ever discussing religion in Cosmos. I glanced through portions of The Demon Haunted World once, for 1-2 hrs., a year or two ago and maybe someday I can read the whole thing.

(I grew up 30 miles from Cornell, where Sagan was a professor, and had strongly considered during middle school becoming an astronomer.)


I have a big book called 'Cosmos' by Carl Sagan, and very interesting it is too. It is choc full of pictures as well. There is some poetry and quotes at the beginning of every chapter. I can relate some to you if you like. They are very inspiring. Carl Sagan was a romantic as well as a brilliant scientist it seems.

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Message 436223 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 19:32:16 UTC - in response to Message 435370.  

Let me ask you this then, What created the creator?


The creator CREATED the whole concept of creation you speak of. In order for our universe to exist there must be a universe without decay.

Read up on Plato.

I'm not religious, just a spiritual, neoplatonic monist.


I am probably wrong on this, but I think I just read that there is a Catholic ceremony to "re virginize" a person. not joking, serious question


What's that got to do with my statement you've got in brackets.

The creator created the laws of creation and death. A universe of decay cannot exist unless a universe WITHOUT decay created it. Platonian philosophy my friend, study up.

There is no proof of any SPECIFIC creator, but indeed all the proof of creation is available. The house has a builder. We all have a PURPOSE for being here. Without purpose, none of us exist.

The fact is life is beyond our human comprehension, and that's the whole point. That way I can jump in front of a bullet for a friend, and not just be making an investment in my heavenly future, but true sacrifice for an ideal, regardless of whether there is any reward or not.
The truth is out there. Or in here. Who left the door open? (my dog comes running back in) There's the truth!

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Message 436237 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 20:05:52 UTC
Last modified: 14 Oct 2006, 20:06:44 UTC

Oh and I saw a post saying athiests can live happily in muslim countries. Please pray tell me where that is. Every muslim country I know hates pagans (who must die or convert), and only OCCASIONALLY respect the other abrahamic faiths (christianity and judaism) though they really hate judaism and western christians, but found a loophole to not kill them, where mohammad says they can live only if they pay a tax, otherwise they must convert or die.

All muslims who convert away from islam are to be stoned. They were gonna do it in Afghanistan even with us watching, they just cracked under pressure and said he was "not guilty by reason of insanity".

Even I met a muslim who said "islam is a religion of peace", then on his personal blog laments about liberal muslims disobeying mohammad's command to stone apostates. Mohammad taught that lies (like when he broke a truce with jews, sound familiar? Hezbollah terrorist leader Nasrallah is a carbon copy of Mohammad) are also good. That is as long as the lies further the cause of islam. So a muslim can lie to you and gain bonus virgins.

Islam is truly twisted, you can marry 9 year old girls because the prophet married his 9-year old daughter-in-law. In Lebanon you can marry a goat as long as it's the opposite gender.

Islam means "submission" and their goal is to force the world into "submission".

Whether it's the Muslim coup in Thailand against Buddhists. Which isn't in the news ironically, the leading general is muslim and has entered into negotiation with muslim seperatists in the south.

Or the Casamance conflict, or the genocide of all non-muslims in the Sudan. Islam is a religion of domination. Muslims are merely "one who submits" after all.

71% of all wars have a muslim participant. 15/21 conflicts. Yet muslims make up only 22% of the population.

In islam, all muslim countries are in the Dar Al-Islam "House of Submission" but all non-muslim countries are in the Dar Al-Harb, or "House of War". All muslim countries MUST be at war with non-muslim countries, and truces longer than 10 years are illegal.

In France, there are "no-go zones" where police won't enter and muslims follow their own sha'ria laws. The muslims in france have their own judges, their own police (who just stone instead of arrest), and their own muslim army (rioting mobs).

In Britain, they announced they will consult with muslim clerics before arresting terrorists, because muslims riot whenever they arrest a terrorist. That'd be like announcing to enemy generals what positions you are going to attack. This is a holy war, and the clerics are the generals.

Today in France, when police responded to a robbery, 50 muslims threw stones and injured an officer. The police retreated.

THAT is the future the west faces. Europe is in denial that they have radical governments operating within their borders. America is in denial that 90% of the mosques preach a hateful fundamentalist, not extremist, rhetoric.

The real muslim extremists are those who DON'T advocate forcing the world into "submission", the word "Islam" means submission

This time around the muslims are not invading militarily, as they did in Spain, Byzantine, and the Balkans, before the pope called on a united effort to repel them, the crusades. This time we face muslims using hitler's tactic of immigrating and outpopulating the enemy. Hitler did this in czechoslovakia. In the same way Hitler said it was the duty of germans to populate, muslim clerics are commanding muslims to populate europe and america to bring them into "Islam" arabic for "submission".
The truth is out there. Or in here. Who left the door open? (my dog comes running back in) There's the truth!

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Message 436289 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 21:31:52 UTC
Last modified: 14 Oct 2006, 21:35:16 UTC

There has been a good deal of controversy in the UK in recent days over the issue of women wearing veils that cover their face. The debate was sparked by the minister Jack Staw, who stated that whenever muslim women visit his 'surgery' within his constituency, he asks them to remove their veil. Mr Straw felt that covering the face was not conducive to engaging in proper conversation, and moreover, it made him feel 'uncomfortable' talking to a woman who's face he could not see.
This ignited a row in which he was fiercely attacked by some Muslims within the community. The debate has been raging ever since, with the media, particularly the newspapers making big news coverage of it. Today there was a full two-page spread on the issue of veil-wearing in the Saturday Mail. A protest march was staged by some women a day after Mr Straw's announcement. During the march many of the marchers wore the full face veil with just the eyes showing.
I feel I must ask the question: In our modern society where there are so many obstacles, from crossing dangerous roads to getting on and off buses to driving in cars, does not the full face veil pose some substantial health and safety issues for the said women?
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Message 436295 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 21:43:39 UTC - in response to Message 435395.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2006, 21:44:40 UTC

I have heard that parts of mount Sinai is off limits to the public. If that is true what are they hiding up there I wonder? Evidence of alien visitation perhaps? Is is another Area 51?


Have you read Erich Von Danikens books?

http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html



Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others.
Groucho Marx 1895-1977

I also have mine, and if you don't like them ... tough, live with it.
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Message 436299 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 21:52:44 UTC - in response to Message 436237.  
Last modified: 14 Oct 2006, 21:57:22 UTC

Oh and I saw a post saying athiests can live happily in muslim countries. Please pray tell me where that is.

Maybe I should have been more clear...

Non Muslims used to live happily in the Middle East until WE destroyed it...

You mock Muslims sacred Religion...

You spread verbal hate about Muslims...

You spread lies and propaganda about Muslims...

You distort the Religion of Islam out of your ignorance...

So much that the so-called 'christians' can't even see that we share the same God...

Can you blame them for not wanting us there anymore? I don't... I blame US... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 436301 - Posted: 14 Oct 2006, 21:55:00 UTC - in response to Message 436295.  

I have heard that parts of mount Sinai is off limits to the public. If that is true what are they hiding up there I wonder? Evidence of alien visitation perhaps? Is is another Area 51?


Have you read Erich Von Danikens books?

http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html




I remember seeing a very good documentary on national television about Erich Von Daniken some years ago. It was about the possibility of alien visitation in the remote past, and it certainly got me thinking. However, I have not purchased any books of his, maybe I should.

'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
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