Religious Thread [8] - CLOSED


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Message 363746 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 16:16:25 UTC
Last modified: 11 Jul 2006, 16:19:44 UTC

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One final thing: This thread is a continuation of [7], [6]-(inaccessable), [5], [4], [3], [2] and [1].

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Message 363750 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 16:25:39 UTC

Good morning all. Let's discuss religious issues. The purpose of this thread should not be conversion or preaching, but an exchange of ideas, such as the purpose of religion (anyone's view, from any philosophy). Why would one adhere to a religion, or not have anything to do with one. Is science a religion? There are lots of things to discuss, and if we try to avoid proselytizing, the subject of this thread is not intrinsically dangerous or provacative.

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Message 363784 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 17:06:06 UTC

Is it safe to post before Robert or Rush comes in to perform a Noodly Blessing upon the thread? :-)
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Message 363800 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 19:40:53 UTC

There is room for silliness in this thread, noodly or otherwise, but sometimes people actually discuss (argue, complain, rant about) religious issues.

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Message 363803 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 19:45:47 UTC - in response to Message 363800.

There is room for silliness in this thread, noodly or otherwise, but sometimes people actually discuss (argue, complain, rant about) religious issues.

Sorry, okay on to a more serious topic. Most of the discussions have been about monotheistic faiths and attheism/agnosticism. Does anyone have insight they'd like to share about other kinds of religious experience, such as polytheism (paganism) or pantheism or "personal spirituality"?
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Message 363806 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 19:50:11 UTC

Hmmm i finde pagan gods wary interesting...what i meen is there is a diferent god for almost anything:rain,sun,earth,fish...
I remember a fiew of them that were worshiped here in the balcans...hmmm wait i dont.Well ill take a look it is an interesting read.
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Message 363893 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 21:17:41 UTC - in response to Message 363750.
Last modified: 11 Jul 2006, 21:18:11 UTC

if we try to avoid proselytizing, the subject of this thread is not intrinsically dangerous or provacative.

I have seen very little 'proselytizing' and very much 'berating' within these so-called religious threads...

Maybe you could add that to your little list of rules... ;)
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Message 363924 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 21:52:01 UTC - in response to Message 363803.
Last modified: 11 Jul 2006, 21:53:21 UTC

Sorry, okay on to a more serious topic. Most of the discussions have been about monotheistic faiths and attheism/agnosticism. Does anyone have insight they'd like to share about other kinds of religious experience, such as polytheism (paganism) or pantheism or "personal spirituality"?
I know this sounds a little snobbish, but I sometimes feel that poly- and pantheism are little more than ancient attempts to explain what humans could not explain, before more scientific or analytical approachs to nature were developed. But that does not completely describe what a religion is intended to do: that is, to give a social framework of ethics or laws for the betterment of the religion's members (and to hell with non-members). That purpose, no matter how imperfectly applied, exists in all religions.

As for "personal spirituality", where does one start? What motivation would one have to search for and try to achieve such a state?

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Message 363958 - Posted: 11 Jul 2006, 22:47:35 UTC - in response to Message 363924.
Last modified: 11 Jul 2006, 22:49:36 UTC

As for "personal spirituality", where does one start?

One could start by reading the Bible and the Qur'an to better understand your Creator... After all, it is He who gave us the Spirit in the first place... Unless of course, it simply evolved too...

What motivation would one have to search for and try to achieve such a state?

To find answers to the age old questions:

1. Where did we come from?
2. Why are we here?
3. Where are we going next?

Not too mention...

4. How to achieve the promise of eternal life?

Which is a good enough motivation for me... ;)

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Message 364102 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 2:25:49 UTC - in response to Message 363800.

There is room for silliness in this thread, noodly or otherwise, but sometimes people actually discuss (argue, complain, rant about) religious issues.



Ok then.


Click the pic


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Message 364154 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 3:30:45 UTC - in response to Message 363800.

There is room for silliness in this thread, noodly or otherwise, but sometimes people actually discuss (argue, complain, rant about) religious issues.


Hey I don't claim to know everything, and we seem to have a few smart folks around this place. Seems like as good a place as any to challenge and have challenged belifes.
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Message 364539 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 12:24:24 UTC - in response to Message 363924.
Last modified: 12 Jul 2006, 12:25:39 UTC

Sorry, okay on to a more serious topic. Most of the discussions have been about monotheistic faiths and attheism/agnosticism. Does anyone have insight they'd like to share about other kinds of religious experience, such as polytheism (paganism) or pantheism or "personal spirituality"?
I know this sounds a little snobbish, but I sometimes feel that poly- and pantheism are little more than ancient attempts to explain what humans could not explain, before more scientific or analytical approachs to nature were developed. But that does not completely describe what a religion is intended to do: that is, to give a social framework of ethics or laws for the betterment of the religion's members (and to hell with non-members). That purpose, no matter how imperfectly applied, exists in all religions.

As for "personal spirituality", where does one start? What motivation would one have to search for and try to achieve such a state?


I have to disagree.

Religions of the past serve the same purpose as they do today....a means of controlling the ignorant masses. It's not about betterment for the congregation, but rather betterment for those directly involved with the church and it's activities.
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Message 364613 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 13:56:26 UTC - in response to Message 363924.

Sorry, okay on to a more serious topic. Most of the discussions have been about monotheistic faiths and attheism/agnosticism. Does anyone have insight they'd like to share about other kinds of religious experience, such as polytheism (paganism) or pantheism or "personal spirituality"?
I know this sounds a little snobbish, but I sometimes feel that poly- and pantheism are little more than ancient attempts to explain what humans could not explain, before more scientific or analytical approachs to nature were developed. But that does not completely describe what a religion is intended to do: that is, to give a social framework of ethics or laws for the betterment of the religion's members (and to hell with non-members). That purpose, no matter how imperfectly applied, exists in all religions.

As for "personal spirituality", where does one start? What motivation would one have to search for and try to achieve such a state?

I was referring to contemporary polytheistic/pantheistic practices, although a historian's view on how these faiths performed social functions in the past would also be interesting.
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Message 364634 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 14:16:16 UTC - in response to Message 364539.

I have to disagree.

Religions of the past serve the same purpose as they do today....a means of controlling the ignorant masses. It's not about betterment for the congregation, but rather betterment for those directly involved with the church and it's activities.

In a purely anthropoligical sense, it doesn't matter if God exists or prayer actually helps the crops grow or faith helps the army win battles. What matters is that the collective morals of the people (codified into a shared faith) created an authority higher than the "king" and that this authority is used to deputize individuals who can make moral judgements that the "king" will heed because the "king" derives his justification to rule from that same authority.

It was the first iteration of government power being ultimately derived from the people.

The problem with this system is that the deputized individuals formed their own institutions with their own interests. Once that happened, things got really corrupt really fast.
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Message 364668 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 15:17:02 UTC - in response to Message 363924.

As for "personal spirituality", where does one start? What motivation would one have to search for and try to achieve such a state?


The simple awnser is you start with a foundation that was already established and build from there. Its like any other study you take what is already out there, you study, you think, you explore and you draw your own conclusions then you continue to expand and learn more and test thoughs conclusions. As far as motivation... well thats diffrent for everyone, no two people are motivated for the same reason.
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Message 364684 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 15:30:38 UTC

Through history, there have been loads of 'unethical' and 'immoral' followers who had no other explanation of the world and it's purported 'purpose' than religion.
While today, technology and more importantly, education allows for the law to curb that sort of behavior. The result? There are still lawbreakers anyway, whether you have religion or not.
Religion doesn't contribute to upholding 'ethical' and 'moral' behavior - it can be replaced by the law.
Since I'm 110% sure there's no god, I'm not afraid in the least to say "kiss my ass, god, you belong in hell, not me."
While on the other hand, I'm not about to risk prison by knocking over a bank just because I would love to live at a Sandals resort 50 weeks out of the year.

Let's just get real here, people. If you proceed on the assumption there is a god, what sense can anyone talk into you? I've given jeffrey links to books that can educate him, he seems to have obtained them, but I've heard nothing else on that. One concludes from his post below that he hasn't made much headway in reading either of them.

Troy Stull has wandered right into the middle of the freeway as well, in assuming that one can resolve an issue by claiming both sides have a legitimate claim to 'truth'. Once again, (since Troy is new here) a link to show how the christian bible interprets reality:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0402/biblefactquiz.html

So, sorry, there, Troy, but religion proceeds from an assumption straight off: that there is a god. If (since) that's wrong, your whole set of assumptions are utterly incorrect.
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Message 364695 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 16:22:46 UTC - in response to Message 364684.



Troy Stull has wandered right into the middle of the freeway as well, in assuming that one can resolve an issue by claiming both sides have a legitimate claim to 'truth'. Once again, (since Troy is new here) a link to show how the christian bible interprets reality:

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0402/biblefactquiz.html

So, sorry, there, Troy, but religion proceeds from an assumption straight off: that there is a god. If (since) that's wrong, your whole set of assumptions are utterly incorrect.


One thing I noticed that was wrong right off that bat with that site...
"The Bible is the final authority on everything"
This isn't true, the bible is not the end all say all. The bible is a foundation on which you build and expand your knowlege.

Look I'm not going to say that some aweful things haven't been done in the name of religon... just ask Galileo Galilei, but its been a small minority not the majority who have perpitrated these things. A bit of personal revelation that I had when I was deployed to the middel east, I thought that all muslims wanted to fly airplanes into buildings and blow up buses. Typical for a 19 year old member of the armed forces, they like you to think like that. Then when I got there I worked day in and day out with some locals there and came to relize that 99% of them are not going to scream 'Parais Alla' then blow up a shopping mall. However its also not as if some pretty messed up things haven't been done in the name of science, look at the testing the Japanese did during WWII, but that wasn't the majority of Sciencetist that was a small few.

Look like I said, I've been studying Science and religon most of my life and I have yet to find one instance where one contradicts the other. I belive in faith based on reason, but faith none the less.
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Message 364700 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 16:30:14 UTC

You haven't found one instance where science an religion contradict eachother, Troy?

The world was created in 6 days?

Worldwide flood and noah's ark with 2 of each animals?

There's a ton of examples.

Not to mention that the bible contradicts itself and virtually ALL religions contradict eachother whereas science corrects itself overtime when there is an APPARENT contradiction inevidence.
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Message 364705 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 16:37:47 UTC - in response to Message 364700.

You haven't found one instance where science an religion contradict eachother, Troy?

The world was created in 6 days?

Worldwide flood and noah's ark with 2 of each animals?

There's a ton of examples.

Not to mention that the bible contradicts itself and virtually ALL religions contradict eachother whereas science corrects itself overtime when there is an APPARENT contradiction inevidence.
He said science vs. religion, not science vs. stories from the Bible meant to teach religion. There is a huge difference.

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Message 364712 - Posted: 12 Jul 2006, 16:47:12 UTC

People adhere to religion for one of a few well defined reasons:
They are insecure
They love the feel of sand in their ears as they stick their heads into a dune
They are incapable of logical thought
They have relatively few brain cells
etc etc ...........

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