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Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 342819)
Posted 20 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: Also you would never do such a trade because the net before costs is zero. I was trying to simplify the example by ignoring transaction costs. In reality it would allow one to lock in a small profit. But as I wrote in oil can't be done at a scale that would seriously affect prices. Anyway, this is how arbitrage works, in any "orderly" market, from physical commodities to stock index futures. |
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22)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 342814)
Posted 20 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: It doesn't work that way. They would sell their oil contracts at a loss because they don't want to take delivery of the oil. And you know this from ...? Btw I happen to be a participant in these markets. Anyway, things don't work exactly as you read in the books, i.e. that speculators never take delivery of the physical commodity etc. E.g. you can read one of the links in my original article, it's a bit "journalistic" but shows how investment banks are active in the physical, taking delivery and storing it in tanks:
Rest of article at http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9072-1257188,00.html |
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23)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 342470)
Posted 19 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: To repeat the issue with broken arbitrage in oil: If arbitrage in oil would work as in almost every other market, then I could e.g. buy those extra 400,000 barrels/day from Saudis (which recently cut, citing lack of buyers) at prevailing price $70 and immediately sell short 400 contracts at $70. If I held my shorts to delivery (of physical), then the "investors" in oil would have to build storage tanks to accumulate the extra 400Kbpd, i.e. 12 million barrels per month. If I kept doing it for a few months, investors would have to keep building tanks to accept new oil or at some point choke on the supply of new oil and stop initiating new longs (buying new paper barrels of oil). Yet I would still be buying 400Kbpd from Saudis and selling short 400 contracts per day, which -in absence of "investor" buyers- would pressure the price down. And when that happens, the "oil investors" would incur a big loss, because they'd have accumulated their hundreds of millions barrels inventory held in their tanks, at higher prices. The abovementioned scenario ofcourse assumes REAL "wet barrel" oil demand is stable (e.g. China's oil imports were down -2.2% in 2005). But, apparently it works differently for oil, because unless those 400Kbpd from Saudis are the exact type specified in the futures contract (as e.g. Brent is 0.4% of world's oil production, but is used to price 60% of world's oil), I can't do this kind of arbitrage at a scale that it would PROMPTLY affect price. That's probably why oil price is going up while producers claim they can't find buyers for their real "wet barrels" of oil. This "feeding of barrels" is happening and "investors" are hoarding it, which is why you see inventories rise, but it's an extremely slow process and meanwhile gullible consumer victims are forced to pay these obscene prices. |
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24)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 342463)
Posted 19 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: Much as one would like to blame the OPEC cartel, we can't ignore the fact that the markets that create this broken pricing system are in NY (NYMEX) and London. Just what else can the Arabs do, other than say "the market is oversupplied and over-priced" as they've been saying since 2005, or "find me a buyer and I'll give him 2 million barrels/day" ? If the consuming nations want to break this vicious circle, there are several options, country-to-country contracts being one of them. As for being a market bubble, I agree it is the case. But the issue here is that unlike a stock bubble, which one can simply ignore, we're all forced to be "long energy" and pay the price dictated by this broken pricing system! It's been THREE (3) YEARS of it already. |
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25)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 342387)
Posted 19 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: They don't have to use those prices they can sell below! If they did the price would start dropping fast because the futures would start to drop! To do as you suggest, they'll have to abolish the current pricing system which is in place for the past 20yr and start selling oil with nation-to-nation contracts. Also, why should the oil producers initiate this change? They're not the ones getting hurt by these absurd oil prices, are they? The problem is the BROKEN pricing system for oil which is being taken advantage of. So we have a situation where oil price goes up and up and at the same time oil producers can't find buyers for their oil (even light sweet crudes, just in case one wonders). Recently (Apr-06) Saudi Arabia reduced production by -400,000 barrels/day (from 9.5Mbpd to 9.1Mbpd) because it could find no buyers for it. |
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26)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
Gasoline Prices around the World
(Message 339973)
Posted 17 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: And to think that Saudi Arabia recently scaled back its oil production from the 9.5Mbpd (steady output of the past 2 yr) down to 9.1Mbpd (-400,000 barrels per day), citing "lack of buyers" (for light sweet oil too) from OPEC producers. I believe you meant to say "hedging", not "arbitrage". IF arbitrage in oil would work as in almost every other market (include stock indices), then I could e.g. buy those extra 400,000 barrels/day from Saudis at prevailing price $70 and immediately sell short 400 contracts at $70. If I held my shorts to delivery (of physical), then the "investors" in oil would either have to build storage tanks to accumulate the extra 400Kbpd, i.e. 12 million barrels per month. If I kept doing it for a few months, investors would have to keep building tanks to accept new oil or at some point choke on the supply of new oil and exit their longs which would bring the market down. And when that happens, the "oil investors" would incur a big loss, because they'd have accumulated their hundreds of millions barrels inventory held in their tanks, at higher prices. This scenario ofcourse assumes REAL "wet barrel" oil demand is stable (e.g. China's oil imports were down -2.2% in 2005). But, as I explained it works differently for oil, because those 400Kbpd aren't the exact type specified in the futures contract (as e.g. Brent is 0.4% of world's oil production, but is used to price 60% of world's oil) s I can't do this kind of arbitrage. That's why oil price is going up, yet producers can't find buyers in the real "wet barrel" market. And inventory is consumed by the public, which is practically a price-inensitive buyer short-term. |
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27)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 339897)
Posted 17 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: The problem is these countries already have enough money so they would rather slow production than drop the price to get it sold. They can find buyers if they would just drop the price. The issue is that e.g. Saudi Arabia doesn't sell "spot" like a gas-station, i.e. you'd go over there with a supertanker and tell them "fill'er up". They sell now oil for delivery after a few months and it's priced off the futures markets, at "prevailing prices". And price discovery mechanism is broken (or "rigged" if you prefer) for the reasons explained in the URL I provided earlier. |
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28)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 339654)
Posted 16 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: One more week ended with oil at $70/bar (it has "stabilised" at 70-75 for the past 2 months). I'm copying some comments from mainstream media, on the issue of speculation in oil. He makes a good point, that very often people discuss the irrelevant "fixes", not the problem. Although, as I explained many times, the real problem isn't speculation (which is a useful transfer-of-risk service), but the FAULTY pricing system for oil which is being taken advantage of. So we have a situation where oil price goes up and up and at the same time oil producers can't find buyers for their oil (even light sweet crudes, just in case one wonders). Recently (Apr-06) Saudi Arabia reduced production by -400,000 barrels/day (from 9.5Mbpd to 9.1Mbpd) because it could find no buyers for it.
rest of article: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166038,00.html |
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29)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
Gasoline Prices around the World
(Message 339516)
Posted 16 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: And to think that Saudi Arabia recently scaled back its oil production from the 9.5Mbpd (steady output of the past 2 yr) down to 9.1Mbpd (-400,000 barrels per day), citing "lack of buyers" (for light sweet oil too) from OPEC producers. OPEC has been citing lack of demand for physical "wet barrels" for the past 2 yr. The oil pricing mechanism is broken and the quicker people wake up the less additional damage will be inflicted, due to this massive wealth transfer. Read more: http://dhatz.blogspot.com/2006/06/oil-to-38657-per-barrel.html |
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30)
Message boards :
Cafe SETI :
About the price of oil
(Message 337120)
Posted 14 Jun 2006 by Dimitris Hatzopoulos Post: Physical market is awash in oil, yet price at record highs of $70/bar. If you're interested to know what is behind $70+/barrel crude oil, when OPEC claim all along that "the market is very well supplied" and recently (Apr-06) OPEC producers can't even find buyers for all their oil, and so e.g. Saudis had to reduce production from 9.5Mbpd (where it stood for the past 2yr) to 9.1Mbpd as reported in Wall Street Journal a few days ago: In an interview after a meeting here of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, Ali Naimi said other cartel members are having trouble finding buyers for all the crude they are producing, at a time when global stores are near full and many refiners have closed facilities for routine maintenance. One Saudi official said an estimated three million barrels a day of refining capacity is out of action and unable to process crude, at a time when the world is using some 84 million barrels a day of oil products like gasoline and jet fuel. you can read more in: http://dhatz.blogspot.com/2006/06/oil-to-38657-per-barrel.html and also a series of posts in Rosetta@home's forum: http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/forum_thread.php?id=1707 even back in Oct-05 (after Katrina "crisis") there were no buyers for real "wet barrels": OPEC Offers an Extra 2M Barrels of Oil OPEC has been stating this since year 2000: Friday, 22 September, 2000, 09:13 GMT 10:13 UK |
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