As an outside observer I have to say, that both ES99 and Quigon have both spoken quite eloquently from their respective viewpoints, and are clearly two thinking and intelligent individuals. ES99 is coming from a practical scientific viewpoint, and Quigon from more of a spiritual viewpoint.

But doesn't it all boil down at the end of the day, to what each individual person WANTS or NEEDS to believe?

Nobody can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a god, or indeed that there isn't one. It's really up to each one of us to decide what we think about it for ourselves. Having done that, I really see little point in trying to change other peoples decisions or opinions.

I find the situation of the American Evangelists who make a financial business out of it quite bizarre! You had to admire Billy Graham for his ferventness, but the others ....

I wish I could view it with your equanimity, however I think belief in god causes too many problems and is often used as a way to control people. God is something the human race really needs to grow out of before we can become more responsible for ourselves and the world we live in.

Unfortunately too many religious people try to force their world view on others, that is the nature of the god meme and the reason such a ludicrous idea has survived for so long.

I'll know it's Friday when the spam starts.

Ah, Friday spam is the best spam.

Low salt too boot!

Collector's addition? People actually collect spam cans.. Now there's an odd hobby.

In Hawaii, Spam Musubi (depicted on the can) is an Island favorite.

Looks good too. I'd have slightly less rice on it though.

The magic and mystery starts every Friday.

By me (Qui-Gon):

Yes, I do believe in God.

* * *

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.

By CR:

Tom, that is without a doubt the most convincing argument for the existence of God that I've ever heard. <snip>...

Thanks.

By Es99:

Well, not really.

* * *

The most liberating thing you can do in life is realise that there is no god and that you are entirely responsible for your own life and choices. :)

It's you who should listen!

Are you a child?

Why do you ask?

Are you a priest?

Cheers!

:O}~

I'll know it's Friday when the spam starts.

Ah, Friday spam is the best spam.

Low salt too boot!

Collector's addition? People actually collect spam cans.. Now there's an odd hobby.

Well I'm not sure science will ever be in a position to prove God does not exist, but it may be able to prove that there is nothing supernatural about the universe's creation (and its physical laws) or how we interact with it (including our spiritual/moral/ethical beliefs and feelings). I suspect that these proofs will be established at some point, and that's why I don't share your belief in a god of any type.

Apologies, there were a lot of specific points in your previous post about physical constants and such, and a comment that appeared to suggest that your God does not interact directly with creation. I could also have been more specific by what I meant by "initial conditions", by which I meant not a thing that could "gell" into any of infinite possibilities, but one that would inevitably lead to a universe where water boils at 32 degrees Fahrenheit, where there are blacks holes, stars, planets, etc. It seems from your response that even were science able to explain how those conditions came about, your faith in God would be strengthened, which makes me wonder, is there anything that science (or indeed any human endeavor) can do to challenge your idea of God?

Take a look at your own link to a debate on this issue. Listen to what the other side says with an open mind and stop being so threatened by people who believe differently from you.

I'm not threatened by your beliefs, i have no beliefs.

It's you who should listen!

Post II.

Oh my this is lovely!!!

A Two Universe theory ,

a physical Universe, based on the ceramic model, created by God the Potter,
and
a spiritual Universe, based on the software model, created by God the Programmer,
with the occasional updates.

Well the only thing i can say is,
"Isn't it great to have an imagination."

God is a Social Construct
which may have had survival benefits 3000 years ago.
With the advent of Science as a human pursuit, it's past time to question
the validaty of some of our older concepts, such as the nature of God and its derivations ie... religion.
They're irrelevant.

To ascribe all the dimensions of our excistence, that we don't understand yet, to an all powerful GOD
is mere wishfull thinking. Afraid of ignorance, afraid of death, afraid of insignificance, we hope that
God is a "Pack Rat" who saves everything he creates and will elevate us to heavenly bliss.

I'm certain that the Universe is more complex than anything we mere mortals could ever imagine.
"Give Science a Chance."
To complicate the universal equation with another level of complexity called God is pointless.

Cheers.

Why Does Deepak wear glasses encrusted with rhinestones?

Yes, I do believe in God.

However, the God I believe in did not make us as dolls or artworks to be enjoyed and kept on a shelf. If God had made us perfect, unable to do harm or be harmed, merely to exist in a world without strife, disease, or any other hardship, we would not be human at all. We would be nothing more than paintings or statues in a garden. The Christian Bible uses that very allegory in Genesis.

kenzieB doesn't see a reason for a God. Humans can do a lot of things, but we cannot explain, let alone create the universe and all its complex rules and interactions. God is the reason for the existence of all of this. God has no gender (that would be limiting); God has no form -- God is not an old man in a painting breathing life into humans. It is because of God that we exist and because of God that we die. If we experience good things in our lives, it is because God made us to be able to create good things and to enjoy them. If we experience bad things in our lives because God made us able to do bad things and to do something about them.

God is not miracles. God has us do things that appear to be miracles. When a vaccination for polio was found it is because there is such a thing as polio and there are people who can address the disease and find a solution. When people die on an operating table and are brought back to life by a skilled doctor, I still see that as a miracle, just as people 2000 years ago thought of bringing a person back to life as a miracle.

God is the reason water boils at 32°F; and the reason hydrogen atoms formed after the Big Bang; and the reason for black holes, stars, planets, people, single celled organisms, atoms and quarks. No scientist has ever been able to explain why the universe gelled in the way that it did and not with some other odd set of physical rules, just as no scientist has ever been able to explain why a singularity 14 billion years ago decided to expand into the universe we know today.

I do believe in God. Not a God that sticks His finger into my personal life, except to the extent that the God I know has made me susceptible to a complex set of physical and moral rules. The God I believe in made everything, including me, but did not make my universe a perfectly safe place nor did God limit me to being a perfect person incapable of error. This leaves me the goals of making our world better and striving for perfection as a moral being (not many have reached that).

I know my response raises other questions, as it should, but this is the simplest and most direct way I can describe my belief in the "thing" (still a very limiting term) that created -- everything.

Boiled down, is this God essentially one that set-up the initial conditions of the universe and then let it run its course? True science does not yet have a complete understanding of those initial conditions and what set the ball rolling, but it's come a long way over the last 3,000 years and I suspect it won't be too long before testable theories are suggested. If and when this happens, would you cease to believe?

I figured that was the one. LOL The snow from what I heard was pretty good at the different ski resorts. Which one do you normally go to? You have a favorite one?

And now your home.... in another of the planet's vacation spots.

Hello everyone. I just got back from my spring vacation. I was connecting to the Internet with my Blackberry, which is too slow for me to check in here. Anyway, I'm home now.

I'm hoping to spawn this thread again pretty soon. I think I'll skip right to Rocky's Coffee Club II point 14, like they skip that unlucky floor at Las Vegas hotels.

Hope you had a great vacation. You spend it skiing? Or enjoying warm weather?