[...] I'm starting to think that you pair are actually enjoying the slaughter of innocent women, children, aid workers (both U.N. and NGO), health workers and reporters over there. Very sad. :-(

I don't like to voice support to any so called "peace movements" or other polical ideologies which obviously won't change anything for the better in the Middle East. That is the Pro-Palestine movement, UN's boss Guterres, UNRWA, to name a few. I repeatedly expressed the fundamentalist settler movement is one of the major obstacles to achieve peace. But just as you some argue here Palestinian terror is a reaction to occupation, I think that the apparent appeal of the orthodox jewish settler ideology for younger people (especially Jewish immigrants from America) is a countermovement to the irreconcilable pro-Palestine rhetoric 'From the River to the Sea, ...' . Both became powerful factors over the decades that are politically almost impossible to control. Both ideologies are diametrically opposed to reconciliation and peace.

You think I'm 'enjoying slaughter'... I politely but firmly reject this. But I miss your acknowledgement that more than a thousand Israeli civilians were slaughtered on October 7th, an event where there is a time before and after. It changed the course of history, clearly for the worse. In all the dozens of articles you posted here, not a single word. This event, nothing else, has triggered the inevitable current war. In order to avoid civilian casualties, a sane government must do the utmost to avoid war. But if such acts occur... defense becomes unavoidable, deterence must be reestablished as well. Then civilians die, many of them.

I also don't like the continuos 'Adolf', 'Nazi', 'Genocide', ... accusations. This is a gross trivialization of the real Nazis. Just look closely at what these Germans at the time did in Europe, especially in Poland, Ukraine and Belarus. In my opinion, such comparisons are inappropriate.

Please let's return to discuss things without personal insinuations or assumptions.

Religions of all types are cancerous infections and they will always be so while they are all allowed to exist and all are based on delusional hypocrisy made up of false myths and cons to deceive the gullible. Mother Earth spent many millions of years developing us, some silly sky fairy didn't just wack up upon this planet 6,000 or so years ago and that's a fact.

I think religions are something very natural. We also know that even the Stone Age peoples that still exist somewhere in the jungle have religious ideas about nature spirits; metaphysical thoughts that give them orientation to understand things for which they still have no explanation. The evolution of human societies gave rise to monotheistic religions (don't know about East Asian ones). Age of Enlightment brought the realization that religion must not control state governments which led to, e.g. state churches (Church of England) or the secular republic (French Revolution) and later tolerance of all religions (Prussia). The communists tried to ban religion completely, to push it back, even in families. This contradicts with personal freedoms. This does not improve societies. Look at China. Mao teached 'Religion is poison'. So, Xi supresses Muslims, Christians, Buddhists...

But lets get back to the cancer that was begun in the 20th century and enforced an invasion of killing and displacing many of the locals who had lived on lands that were theirs for many generations beforehand which has only been accelerating under the terrorist Adolf Benji's decades of policies, some of which go even further back them him, all with the seeming approval of of certain western nations.

Settlement of Ashkenazi (European) Jews in Palestine started in 19th century on legally aquired lands. I agree to the objection Europeans in the Middle East were aliens compared to Arabs or Oriental Jews: Rich (vs. average Arabs); highly developed, well educated; in the beginning investors, sought-after by Arab princes to develop this neglected, impoverished region (centuries of Ottoman mismanagement). European Jews did not displaced locals before 1948; but Arabs carried out several pogroms against them, e.g. [1], [2], just like Russian authorities did in 19th century (one of the reasons which gave rise to the Zionist movement). To the opposite: the Ashkenazi Jew's growing prosperous communities in Palestine attracted many impoverished (landless) Arabs from Egypt and Jordan who moved there because of employment opportunities. (no previous industrialization in Palestine). Please look into population statistics before 1948. There is no genuine, indigenious people "Palestinians" of Palestine, displaced by invaders. They are Arabs from Egypt, Syria, from Cisjordan (today Israel & West Bank, Gaza) and Transjordan (Jordan), Arab Christians, Oriental Jews; minorities like Druze. Today's interpretation of 'Palestinians' as solely Arab is intentionally misleading (defined by PLO in the late 1960s).

Eventually, what we are witnessing in the Middle East was an inevitable clash of civilizations. But 'The Jew; or the Zionist is guilty' is not a sufficient analysis of the root causes. The last flare-up of colonial-like power exercised by FR & UK after WW2 did not improve things there either. It's easy for historians to assess faulty reasoning afterwards; difficult for politicians beforehand.

Now come up with some fair and practical solutions instead of just trying to justify the outright lies, destruction and genocide that is going on, I dare you too.

1. Remove Mullahs from power or contain their destructive influence
   
2. Stop financing of Palestinian terrorists by Arab oil money
   
3. Stop enlarging Jewish settlements in West Bank; Stop and remove all outposts first.
   
4. Stop brainwashing of Palestinian schoolkids by UNRWA, Hamas (Gaza), Palestinian Authority (West Bank)
   
5. Restart a peace process with the aim of a Two-State solution
   

Step 5 cannot be achieved without 1 & 2.

But I miss your acknowledgement that more than a thousand Israeli civilians were slaughtered on October 7th, an event where there is a time before and after.

You tend to miss a lot.

This thread I started a long time before Oct.7 happened (and I was going to start this thread a lot earlier, but I held off) as I could see back then that something along the lines of Oct.7 was going to happen with the atrocities that certain Israelis were carrying out well before this thread started (yes I'm just repeating myself again here for sake of the ignorant).

When terrorist settlers started barricading sleeping Palestinians inside their homes and then burning those homes down was the last straw for me and then it was further compounded by the IDF shooting Palestinians that were throwing stones at those said settlers to protect those terrorists from the stones. What sort of justice is that?

How many innocent Palestinians were killed before Oct.7 happened? A lot more than the thousand or so Israelis on that day, but where were you then? You certainly wasn't expressing anything back then about that were you?

Now what do we have? Over 40,000 Palestinians murdered (mostly innocent women and children), places completely destroyed or stolen, people being moved around from 1 unsafe zone to another and other countries drawn into a conflict started by decades of Adolf Benji's policies.

And if you don't like me calling things for what they really are then that's just tough titties for you.

Then there's this latest Israeli crime triggered by a fool who shouldn't have been where he was and he knew it.

Settlers violently enter Palestinian school near Jericho after Jewish herder attacked.

Tensions flared Monday between settlers and Palestinians near the West Bank settlement of Mevo'ot Yericho. Settlers wielding clubs were filmed infiltrating a local Palestinian village school, reportedly attacking students and staff. Both the Civil Administration and IDF are now investigating the incident.

The confrontation was ignited when a Jewish goat herder found himself embroiled in an altercation with several Palestinians while grazing in an area off-limits to Jews near a Palestinian village nestled in the Mu'arrajat region, a landscape dotted with Bedouin settlements northwest of Jericho. Both the shepherd and his companion sustained injuries.
Later, a group of settlers, armed with clubs, stormed an elementary school in the village. The Palestinian news agency Wafa reported that these settlers assaulted students and educational staff. According to Palestinian sources, they not only beat an elderly man but also charged into the school, attacking students and teachers.
Reports also surfaced that the school principal and a teacher were apprehended by IDF, accused of hurling stones at the settlers. Palestinians, however, contend they were merely trying to shield the children and repel the settlers. The Palestinian Red Crescent documented injuries to seven individuals during these clashes, comprising both Palestinians and activists who had arrived to lend support........

1. Remove Mullahs from power or contain their destructive influence
   
2. Stop financing of Palestinian terrorists by Arab oil money
   
3. Stop enlarging Jewish settlements in West Bank; Stop and remove all outposts first.
   
4. Stop brainwashing of Palestinian schoolkids by UNRWA, Hamas (Gaza), Palestinian Authority (West Bank)
   
5. Restart a peace process with the aim of a Two-State solution
   

Step 5 cannot be achieved without 1 & 2.

But you have to have peace 1st before any of you suggestions can get started and peace is what is required right now (actually it was required many months ago) and you also have to do something about Israel's far right government and those extremist rabbi as well as their supporters.

You just can't treat 1 side any differently to the other, both must be treated equally or you'll never have any chance of peace to start with.

But you have to have peace 1st before any of you suggestions can get started and peace is what is required right now (actually it was required many months ago) and you also have to do something about Israel's far right government and those extremist rabbi as well as their supporters.

You don't need peace or a ceasefire first to achieve *1 and *2. This should have been enforced decades ago through diplomatic means (which includes economic sanctions). The world community wants to have peace in the Middle East but it clearly don't wants Israel to address *1 and *2. So which influential powers consent to adress *1 and *2 then? A ceasefire can be achieved without. Peace resp. a lasting Two-State-solution cannot.

You just can't treat 1 side any differently to the other, both must be treated equally or you'll never have any chance of peace to start with.

'We' or 'one' definitely MUST treat murderous terror organizations differently than democraticly elected (or any, also autocratic) governments of sovereign states; independent if it is left-wing, right-wing; or as you suggest 'extremist' or not. Then... Who has to do something? Who is the 'one'? UN?, UNSC? US? Major powers? Middle East governments, Pro-Palestine movement? Or a 'Coalition of the willing'? Go on, convince your[*] government to take responsibility in the Middle East. Demand them to exert soft (diplomatic) and/or hard (military, economic) power to achieve peace there. They have all long since lost interest in this conflict in which too much time and money can be wasted with 'no result' as the most likely. President Clinton once explained his experiences vividly.

[*] 'your' means not your, but any countries' government with a clearly expressed pro-Palestine movement.

We have to do 'something' about governments we don't like? No, we definitely shoulde not return to the interventionist strategies of the "Bush warriors" era, whose simplistic worldview was "Regime change", followed by "Democratic Elections" to remove the evil from this world. It failed everywhere. We better stick to the established diplomatic principle, which is multilateralism and non-interference into foreign sovereign state government's affairs (even into Syria's Bashar al-Assad's, or Benji's). Disagreement and conflicts between sovereign countries must be solved diplomatically. The lessons learned from WW2, manifested in the UN charta was: Sovereign states no longer possess the right to wage war.... not an accepted continuation of politics. That's why terrorist rule (war instead of diplomacy) in an inhabited territory cannot be tolerated. IS was not tolerated. Hamas, Hezbollah or Houthies can't as well. They can't be 'peers' among 'peers' as long as they perpetrate acts of war against sovereign states, but can become 'peers' as soon as they renounce terror, like PLO did.

If you ignore these post-WW2 principles through passivity, world-wide indifference, or appeasement, the pre-WW2 era will return.... a Wulf's World: The most powerful prevails. Palestinians clearly are not among them. Moderately powerful Arab leaders no longer care about them, even fear their destructive social influence. They have lost almost all of their former supporters in past decades (Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, UAE, Saudis, Iraq, ...). There's not much left.

(which includes economic sanctions)

Economic sanctions don't work on stone age economies. Or did you mean to sanction Israel?

Overheated batteries?...

Weirdly strange??!!


Hezbollah says exploding pagers kill three and injure many in Lebanon
wrote:

The Iran-backed Lebanese armed group Hezbollah says two of its fighters and a girl have been killed after handheld pagers used to communicate exploded.

Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon was among hundreds of people reportedly injured...

... CCTV footage appeared to show an explosion in a man’s trouser pocket as he stood at a shop till...

... There was no immediate comment from the Israeli military, which has been exchanging fire with Hezbollah since last October in parallel with the Gaza war.

But the events come hours after Israel’s security cabinet made the safe return of 60,000 residents displaced in the north by Hezbollah attacks an official war goal...

... “The possibility for an agreement is running out as Hezbollah continues to ‘tie itself’ to Hamas, and refuses to end the conflict,”...

... Hezbollah has said it is acting in support of the Palestinian group. Both are backed by Iran and proscribed as terrorist organisations by Israel, the UK and other countries...

What is Hezbollah in Lebanon and will it go to war with Israel?
wrote:

Fighting between Israel and Hezbollah across the Israeli-Lebanese border has significantly escalated in recent months, raising fears of an all-out war...

... Hezbollah is a politically-influential Shia Muslim organisation which controls the most powerful armed force in Lebanon. It was established in the early 1980s by the region's most dominant Shia power, Iran, to oppose Israel...

... The group is designated a terrorist organisation by Western states, Israel, Gulf Arab countries and the Arab League.

In 2006, a full-blown war broke out between Hezbollah and Israel, triggered by a deadly cross-border raid by Hezbollah...

Deadly history repeats?...

All in a very deadly political world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

(which includes economic sanctions)

Economic sanctions don't work on stone age economies. Or did you mean to sanction Israel?

Iran and Qatar are the opposite of stone age economies.

(which includes economic sanctions)

Economic sanctions don't work on stone age economies. Or did you mean to sanction Israel?

Iran and Qatar are the opposite of stone age economies.

They aren't in Gaza any more than Germany and the US are in Israel. Or are you calling for world war again?

Overheated batteries?...

Short by software.

Benji uses indiscriminate targeting and kills children. A true war criminal.

Overheated batteries?...

I saw one of the videos, which had audio and appeared to be from a store CCTV. The pager(?) went "boom" and exploded with little smoke and no flames/sparks. Overheated/shorted batteries tend to burn more slowly and emit much smoke, flames and/or sparks. Examples (which also nails the smoke precisely as 0.7L per watt-hour.)

This seems like the manufacturer was compromised(?) and there was actual explosive in them.

---

This seems like the manufacturer was compromised(?) and there was actual explosive in them.

According to The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/17/hezbollah-tech-blunder-ended-leabnon-pager-attack-israel/

The impacted devices appeared to have included “rugged” pagers developed by the Taiwanese company Gold Apollo, according to reporters at Bellingcat.

Ken Munro, the founder of the cyber security company Ken Test Partners, said: “I’m leaning hard towards a supply chain attack, as to remotely cause a battery to explode in such a fashion would be extremely challenging.”

And that as little as 10 gms of HMX or C4 would be enough to cause the injuries seen.

Well Adolf Benji has now pulled well ahead in the who starts WWIII punting as the results of his latest climb to 11 9 dead (1 being a young girl) and around 4,000 2750 injured. [edited due to link corrections]

Hezbollah pager explosions live updates: Israel blamed for synchronised explosions across Lebanon.

(which includes economic sanctions)

Economic sanctions don't work on stone age economies. Or did you mean to sanction Israel?

Iran and Qatar are the opposite of stone age economies.

They aren't in Gaza any more than Germany and the US are in Israel. Or are you calling for world war again?

I'm getting that impression with the same old language that has kept this problem growing (and it's really on the boil now).

But I've got to ask him why should a Palestinian who just wants to live, go about their business, raise a family and watch their children grow up in their own home in peace be subject to different rules and laws to that of an Israeli who just wants to do the same thing?

[edit] Meanwhile the murdering of women and children continues.

4 Children Among 16 Killed by Israeli Airstrikes.

... a Palestinian who just wants to live, go about their business, raise a family and watch their children grow up in their own home in peace...

If only...

To be free of being a political deadly pawn in a 1000 years' old proxy war of despotic regimes and their 'interpretation' of what they call religion.


Dream on?

Meanwhile, to solve the politics across that region...?

Meanwhile, Putin laughs in our faces...


All in a deadly political world...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

This seems like the manufacturer was compromised(?) and there was actual explosive in them.

According to The Telegraph https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/17/hezbollah-tech-blunder-ended-leabnon-pager-attack-israel/

The impacted devices appeared to have included “rugged” pagers developed by the Taiwanese company Gold Apollo, according to reporters at Bellingcat.

Ken Munro, the founder of the cyber security company Ken Test Partners, said: “I’m leaning hard towards a supply chain attack, as to remotely cause a battery to explode in such a fashion would be extremely challenging.”

And that as little as 10 gms of HMX or C4 would be enough to cause the injuries seen.

Social media quots the contract was for 5000 pagers. It sounds like essentially all of them were explosive filled since we have near 5000 causalities. That doesn't happen in shipment, they came from the factory as bombs. With special circuit boards that respond to a special message text.

Social media quotes the Taiwanese company as saying this model was made by a subcontractor in Europe. Very interesting to see what country it was. Which EU member has blood on its hands. Or does Israel own an electronics assembly plant in the EU?

What does the government of Taiwan do? Has Benji made another enemy?

Or does Israel own an electronics assembly plant in the EU?

Take your pick.
https://go-eit.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Israeli-Tech-Companies-in-Europe-Map-Report.pdf

From AP, Pagers that exploded in Lebanon and Syria were made by a company in Budapest, Gold Apollo says
Also At Reuters, Gold Apollo says Budapest-based BAC produces model of pagers used in Lebanon blasts

But I've got to ask him why should a Palestinian who just wants to live, go about their business, raise a family and watch their children grow up in their own home in peace be subject to different rules and laws to that of an Israeli who just wants to do the same thing?

I try to argue this way: A woman in Afghanistan or war-torn regions of Syria is subject to different rules than women in Israel. They aren't allowed to go about any business. It is the government which determines the rules... the conditions in which people live. In democratic societies people can replace their government. They cannot in Afghanistan, Syria or e.g. Gaza. Hamas, you called it "government", has decided to wage war, to lead all Gazans into an all-out war with Israel. Mahmoud Abbas government in West Bank refrained from such madness. Surely, Gazans don't agree to the catastrophic living conditions this decision entails. So they have to replace their government which is unlikely... no, impossible for them. Israel will not wait for a fairy to descend from heaven and magically replaces Gaza's leaders with peaceniks.

Your argument about fairness and the right to equal living conditions for Palestinians and Israelis is completely out of touch with reality. It is obvious to everyone that such demands requires ONE thing from Gaza's leaders: Renounce war of aggression. Otherwise it is... war, which is misery and death, nothing else. The unfair, unequal living conditions for Palestinians... Please pardon my bluntness, but your argument is grotesque.

There's only one alternative view for which your argument makes sense, that of the fundamentalist pro-Palestine faction: From the river to the sea... Palestine will be free. That is, Israel has to be replaced with the Unitary State of Palestine: same laws, same rules for all Jews, Palestinians, Christians, Druze... with an Arab majority (more Palestinians on earth than Israelis as per UN definition). A democratic state? Of course! For how long will it be democratic and guarantees rights of non-Muslims? The examples of Egypt (Muslim brotherhood's election victory, US/UK shortly after preferred dictator al-Sisi to topple the islamists); Gaza (Hamas abolished democracy) or West Bank (Uuh, no elections since ~18 years) or all other Arab states are discouraging. Israelis will never risk another expulsion of the Jews from their ancient homelands. They aren't stupid which why Israel's sovereignty is the red line; the Two-State solution (different laws and rules for different people) is the only achievable goal for peace.

Benji uses indiscriminate targeting and kills children. A true war criminal.

The children of Lebanon prefer smartphones capable of Youtube or TikTok apps instead of crypto pagers. War criminal? Most former US Presidents... who approved (hot) CIA operations are war criminals too?

Iran is not responsible for the missiles Hezbollah indiscriminately fires into Israel's residential areas, right? Why should Benji be responsible for malfunctioning pagers, manufactured in Taiwan or Hungary? Many governments are familiar with the hidden dirty warfare of intelligence services. What all have in common is the denial of responsibility for covert battles. A dirty, disgusting business, on all sides.

Another twist in the pager story.

British-educated entrepreneur denies manufacturing explosive pagers
Chief executive of Hungarian firm BAC Consulting accused of designing and making devices that killed 12 and injured thousands in Lebanon

Gold Apollo said “the design and manufacturing of the products are solely the responsibility” of Budapest-based BAC Consulting KFT, which was authorised to use its brand as part of a three-year-old licensing agreement.
“We may not be a large company but we are a responsible one,” said chairman Hsu Ching-kuang. “This is very embarrassing.”

However, Cristiana Bársony-Arcidiacono, the CEO of BAC Consulting, said “I do not make the pagers. I am just the intermediary. I think you got it wrong” when reached on the phone by NBC News.
...

On the BAC consulting website, which was impossible to access by Wednesday morning, the company said it was involved in “bridging technology and innovation from Asia”.
It said the firm helps telecommunications businesses in Asia scale up to reach new markets.
The company’s address was registered to a residential-looking two-storey building in Budapest. The company’s name was posted on the glass door on an A4 sheet.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/18/hungary-entrepreneur-denies-manufacturing-explosive-pagers/