McDuck your denials are noted and all are found to be wanting.

Selective reading?...


Special note: 'Tis very good to discuss real world (referenced) facts, and the ideas as ideas/ideals.


Genocide (of any group) is not a good way to go.

Neither are repeated threats of Genocide any sort, any sort of way to go...

Keep searchin' for a good all encompassing positive (political???) solution.


Be Excellent to Everyone!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

No not selective.

It's just the same old rhetoric that has kept this pressure cooker on the boil for far too many generations and all these worn out excuses for stupidity isn't doing a thing about all the women and children that are being slaughter and it's time for things to change which some don't seem to want. They just want this uneven status quo to continue no matter what it costs in innocent lives and I'm finding that the most sicking part about it.

Quite frankly I'd be in favour of the U.N. taking control over the whole country and administration put in the hands of those without a vested interest in it.

Peace must be had between these people and both should be treated on equal terms.

... the U.N. taking control over the whole country and administration...

That has been the case for many years now, ever since the failure of Yasser Arafat.


Since then, that area has been taken over by criminal gangs and then the criminal gangs were taken over by Iran and Russia, and the rest is history.

Israel has since attempted a Batman-like "convert the area into an Arkham Asylum".

The rest of the political world have been most agreeable to that and pay the ongoing running costs.


And the political can was kicked down the years...

So what next for an everlasting positive solution??


All in our deadly political world...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Didn't the UN cause this problem in the first place, by dismantling the Green Line in 1967.

Didn't the UN cause this problem in the first place, by dismantling the Green Line in 1967.

No they didn't, just 2 countries who basically saved the others' asses during WWII told others at the time to "follow our lead in this" and I've already named them, though admittedly by their given names at the time, that led ultimately to this clusterf#$k that's been going well before 1967 as you should well know.

So you are saying the 1967 Six Day war would still have happened while the UN forces were between the attacking Arab nations and their target of pushing Israel into the Mediterranean Sea.

Quite frankly I'd be in favour of the U.N. taking control over the whole country and administration put in the hands of those without a vested interest in it.

I would immediately agree to your idea, the UN, that is the world authority, takes responsibility for Gaza (denying any power for Israel) and enforces peace. This is a theoretic idea which must fail in reality.

"taking control" requires real power... Peace is the absence of war. War is absent if warring parties are deterred from agression. So UN has to provide this deterrence which requires a powerful military force. Credible deterrence also requires the will and ability to immediately and massively repel any aggression. Quick military reaction requires an integrated military chain of command. The UN is incapable to provide this because UNSC or even UNGA is not willing to establish any UN body which controls powerful military forces.

We learned this the hard way in Bosnia in 1993. There, the Dutch UN peace keepers were humilated as completely powerless by Serbian rebels and Serbian army commanders. States have to agree before UN troops can be send there. UN troops can't "take control" of a country or region. Troops are lightly armed (their nation states refuse to provide heavy weapons). They can stop clashes, street battles, and civil war-like unrest. What UN troops can't do is to stop state or quasi-state actors who use military force. The command chain of UN peacekeepers runs all the way up to the UN headquarters. If they come under pressure, field commanders have to phone the authorities (civilians) in New York to urge them to discuss their rules of engagement or to beg for support. UN troops are pure show. The show is convincing as long as the bad guys believe it's a military force. That's why no sane government would send troops under UN authority to occupy Gaza or West Bank.

So you are saying the 1967 Six Day war would still have happened while the UN forces were between the attacking Arab nations and their target of pushing Israel into the Mediterranean Sea.

If there are credible military powers, and UN forces in between, then these military powers also have the diplomatic means to force the UN to withdraw these troops as soon as they hinder them from achieving stategic aims.

I assume this was the case for Egypt which somehow managed to convince UN to withdraw all UN troops from Sinai in 1967. It is not only UN or UNSC who decides to withdraw UN troops. The powerful enforce their will as long as they aren't deterred by an even more powerful actor.

It is a complete diplomatic disgrace when a tank army simply speeds past UN peacekeepers or rams them of the road. Better to withdraw in time.

No they didn't, just 2 countries who basically saved the others' asses during WWII told others at the time to "follow our lead in this" and I've already named them, though admittedly by their given names at the time, that led ultimately to this clusterf#$k that's been going well before 1967 as you should well know.

cryptic insinuations... I assume you mean the US which in the Suez crisis demonstrated that the UK and FR are no longer independent strategic powers in the Middle East. And the second: USSR. So, the decades-long influence of both US and USSR in the Middle East would require a separate thread. Well, I think the kraken USSR's destructive influence prevailed. Mullahs replaced them.

But they are the government of Gaza. Just because Benji says they aren't doesn't make it so. Just because the Palestinian Authority claims to be the government doesn't make it so. Just because some in the west can't fathom that terror like acts are the only method they have to fight off their land stealing oppressors.

IS was the government of territories in Iraq and Syria which they conquered. Why did the West as well as Russia and most countries on earth never recognized them? Hamas violently took over power in Gaza in 2007; murdered many previous government members. Why should anybody outside of Gaza accept them as the government? They are terrorists who do terrorist things all day, while the UN and NGOs provide the services to civilians, the government is normally responsible for. So there's somehow a concept of diplomatic foreign relations and mutual international recognition of foreign governments, e.g. after elections. Or denial of recognition (see Maduro in Venezuela after latest forged elections). Who recognizes Hamas as government of Gaza? Mullahs. Syria. ... eventually some micro-nation in Polynesia...

Completely different for Ukraine which has diplomatic relations to the majority of countries in the world. It lost its relations to states which depend on Russia (e.g. Mali).

They are terrorists who do terrorist things all day

Which can be said of nearly every government on the planet at some point in their past.

Lets go back further than 1967 to 1917 when the British Empire and the failed Legion of Nations (with French backing) supported a declaration cooked up by an idiot fool called Balfour and the robber Baron de Rothschild that started the invasion of Palestine which was further compounded after WWII by the U.S./British led U.N. at that time. It's all just part of the history of empire building countries thinking that they could do what they wanted with the lands that they occupied without thinking about the repercussions, even here we're still living with the problems caused by those who thought that they were privileged, above others and could do what they want with lands that they stole from the people that were already there. Adolf Benji and his murderous mob think that same way.

Quite frankly I'd be in favour of the U.N. taking control over the whole country and administration put in the hands of those without a vested interest in it.

I would immediately agree to your idea, the UN, that is the world authority, takes responsibility for Gaza (denying any power for Israel) and enforces peace. This is a theoretic idea which must fail in reality.

You missed my clearly stated point yet again, I said the whole country as the Israelis have proven time and again that they can't govern for either side.

As I've said before, this is a problem created by the stupidity of the west thinking that they can just divide up places that just don't belong to them and it just gets worse and more 1 sided as the years roll on and really needs to stop, now.

The U.N. these days has grown much larger in its membership with more diversity and a large majority of those countries are sick of this continuing farce (just look at the voting tallies that keep being vetoed by fools), but until those powers of veto are abolished it'll remain a toothless tiger with a handful of privileged countries standing in the way of progress and that also needs to change.

Arn't we all suppose to be equals in the eyes of the sky fairies? Well it's well past time that all were treated as such and this slaughter of women and children ended.

You missed my clearly stated point yet again, I said the whole country as the Israelis have proven time and again that they can't govern for either side.

Uuh okay.... Indeed, I missed that your understanding of "the whole country" comprises the whole territory which was called "Palestine" before 1948. So you call to redraw international state borders to achieve... what exactly? A new unified, diverse, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, of course secular, and democratic state... with an Arab majority? (per UN there are more 'Palestinians' on earth than Israelis). Why not redraw the borders of Syria, Iraq and Turkey first, which separates the oppressed Kurdish people (~80 million without a nation state)? Israel is a sovereign country, its borders recognized by UN. Nobody has jurisdiction over Israel (or e.g. Syria's government, which obviously can't govern their citizens). UN is no government. UN peacekeepers require consent of any host nation (which was btw. withdrawn [*] by Egypt to wage the Six-Days-War). Denying or challenging Israel's sovereignty means aggression. Your stated point must lead to all-out war---not peace.

The major obstacle for peace in the Middle East is the unwilligness of influential Arabs in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, supposedly Qatar, and other countries to achieve a Two State Solution. Why? 'Two States' means Palestine has to recognize the State of Israel. That is against most Arabs' religious and political convictions (see chartas of PLO, Hamas, resolutions of Arab League, ...). While the late PLO's Arafat or today PA's Mahmoud Abbas were willing to recognize Israel, other powerful players (e.g. Hamas, Hezbollah, leaders of Syria, Kuwait, Qatar, eventually Iraq?, Mullahs!!!) clearly are not. As long as this obstacle remains, every further peace process is futile. It will be suddenly aborted by an horrific terror attack; another intifada, before any party could sign the treaty.... which then can also be broken anytime, like ceasefire agreements. Remember "Peace for our time"?

The U.N. these days has grown much larger in its membership with more diversity and a large majority of those countries are sick of this continuing farce (just look at the voting tallies that keep being vetoed by fools), but until those powers of veto are abolished it'll remain a toothless tiger with a handful of privileged countries standing in the way of progress and that also needs to change.

'majority of countries are sick'. What does that mean? The majority are non-democratic autocracies today. Their autocratic rulers express their personal displeasure with world affairs. Who cares? Why should the opinion of a dozen micro-nations count more than, e.g. China's, US, Brazil's and Germany's? Such voting tallies are meaningless if unanimity among all major powers could not been achieved. Reforms are impossible, because of micro nation A or B... All UN nations are equals among equals? No, they aren't.

I would also support to abolish veto powers because that would render the entire UNSC and UNGA superfluous because the major powers or all large countries would henceforth ignore its resolutions. US could stop payments to run this 'Tower of Babel' and within a month a well-located property on New York's East River would be offered on the real estate market. You can't have democratic majority voting among autocratic entities. All you can have is a circus of world's varieties which offers a permanent forum to talk with (or at least shout at) each other. That's true progress, achieved by President Roosevelt. No progress since then.

[*]UN document was posted here before... don't remember by whom

If you are going back in time, why stop at 1917.

Let's go back to 1050 BC.

Let's go back to 1050 BC.

Now you want to go back to La La Land times when the evil sky fairies were invading the world setting off their cancerous growths? (BTW, that means religions)

At the rate you pair are defending Adolf Benji, his far right Nazi mob, their atrocities, as well as those by the IDF and their terrorist settlers without voicing any real actions to bring peace I'm starting to think that you pair are actually enjoying the slaughter of innocent women, children, aid workers (both U.N. and NGO), health workers and reporters over there. Very sad. :-(

I don't support all of Benji's actions, but I do think his basic strategy is correct, in that the Israeli state will never be safe as long as the terrorists have access to weapons and the terrorist actions of hiding behind and beneath the weak population, which they do not care about. Except as a large death toll that the terrorists use as bait to draw many into supporting them.

If the terrorists want to be classed as the rulers of the Palestinians, they must act like it, not shedding their uniforms at the first sight of the Israeli forces and doing all they can to protect the civilian population, which includes not using civilian occupied buildings and not firing from so-called safe places like schools and hospitals which cause most of the casualties, when fire is returned.
Those principles are part of the Geneva Convention, and until they abide by them, I will not support them.

And you think this is not about religion, now I know you believe in myths.

And you think this is not about religion, now I know you believe in myths.

And yet you also miss my point as well. Do you just do this on purpose?

Religions of all types are cancerous infections and they will always be so while they are all allowed to exist and all are based on delusional hypocrisy made up of false myths and cons to deceive the gullible. Mother Earth spent many millions of years developing us, some silly sky fairy didn't just wack up upon this planet 6,000 or so years ago and that's a fact.

But lets get back to the cancer that was begun in the 20th century and enforced an invasion of killing and displacing many of the locals who had lived on lands that were theirs for many generations beforehand which has only been accelerating under the terrorist Adolf Benji's decades of policies, some of which go even further back them him, all with the seeming approval of of certain western nations.

Now come up with some fair and practical solutions instead of just trying to justify the outright lies, destruction and genocide that is going on, I dare you too.

not shedding their uniforms

What universal truth that is self evident requires a uniform? (or clothes for that matter*)

And you think this is not about religion, now I know you believe in myths.

They all believe in the identical religion, the religion of the burning bush. That is a religion that says you are special and elevated above all others. To have peace all religions with such a tenet must be eliminated from the planet.


*I know burning bush makes its adherents ashamed of their own body that is made in the form of their sky fairy so they are supposed to cover themselves, but that isn't a universal truth.

Well they finally admit to what a lot of us already knew, but how many more lay entombed underground killed in just the same way (some that they may never find)?

Three hostages found dead last year were likely killed in Israeli air strike, IDF says.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) says there is a "high probability" that three Israeli hostages found dead months ago were killed in an Israeli air strike.

The IDF announced the conclusions of its investigation into the deaths of Corporal Nik Beizer, Sergeant Ron Sherman and Elia Toledano on Sunday.

It said investigations had determined that the three were likely killed in an IDF air strike in November that also killed a senior Hamas militant, Ahmed Abu Ghandour.

All three of the hostages were kidnapped in Hamas' October 7 attack.

Their bodies were recovered in December, but the cause of death was only recently determined.

In its report, the IDF said there was a "high probability" they were killed in the strike based on where the bodies were recovered, pathological reports and other intelligence.

However, it added, "It is not possible to definitely determine the circumstances of their deaths".

The conclusions could add pressure on the government to strike a deal to bring home the remaining hostages held by Hamas........

I wonder if Adolf Benji could be forced to the peace table if the suppliers (and we know who they are) of the bombs, missiles and shells that are meant to be used to defend against external forces would not be replaced when used internally while spare parts and support for the equipment used to deliver those munitions was also stopped. 1 thing is for sure and that is this will only get thousands more protestors out on Israeli streets calling for Adolf Benji's head.

Let's go back to 1050 BC.

I'm supporting the reestablishment of the Roman Empire. These were good, prosperous centuries for Roman citizens (we were lucky to keep them out of our dark forests in northern Germany). They tried to suppress the Old Testament religions in the Middle East, which were already back then trying to plunge the (known) world into chaos. Well, the Romans failed.