Meanwhile Adolf Benji continues to prove that his Israel is no better than Adolf Hitler's Germany was.

Israel has said it carried out an extraordinary attack on Hamas’ leadership on the territory of US ally Qatar. And the White House isn’t happy.

Israel launches air strike on Hamas 'senior leadership' in Qatar.

And they certainly want their genocidal actions to continue.

Israel has literally blown up the Gaza ceasefire negotiations while opening another front in its war.

The U.S. ultimatum to Afghanistan of Sep 20th 2001:

• deliver to the U.S. all of the leaders of al-Qaeda
  
• release all imprisoned foreign nationals
  
• close immediately every terrorist training camp
  
• hand over every terrorist and their supporters to appropriate authorities
  
• Give the U.S. full access to terrorist training camps for inspection
  

Please explain to me the difference to what the United States did on Oct 7th 2001 in Afghanistan (Operation Enduring Freedom). This war killed 175,000 to 200,000 people, among them 46,000 civilians. U.N. accused back then: deepening poverty with 6M people at risk of famine.

Was the 2001 U.S. administration no better than Hitler's Germany was?
Did the U.S. perpetrated a genocide in Afghanistan?

The difference, in my opinion, Israel repeatedly appeased and negotiated with Hamas, almost two years already, still ~50 hostages. The U.S. did not appease Al Qaeda in 2001 and in the years after. That's the difference.

What would have happened in Doha (Qatar) if Osama bin Laden had resided there in 2001?

Hum, if the Hamas government officials were in Qutar as recognized diplomatic representatives? Could that force Doha into war on the illegal aggressor? Isn't protection of diplomats part of international agreements? Wouldn't a real country have first used legal and diplomatic requests or demands before the gravest actions? Don't only terrorists simply strike out?

Hum, if the Hamas government officials were in Qutar as recognized diplomatic representatives? Could that force Doha into war on the illegal aggressor? Isn't protection of diplomats part of international agreements? Wouldn't a real country have first used legal and diplomatic requests or demands before the gravest actions? Don't only terrorists simply strike out?

Is Hamas, a designated terrorist organisation, the government of Gaza?
They were just some of the leaders of Hamas, who hoped they were living a life of luxury, in a safe place, while leaving their 'people' undefended and starving.

Doha could be in a bit of a quandary, as it was also attacked by Iran in June. The Al Udeid Air Base, which houses the U.S. Central Command.
Are they going to be fighting Iran and Israel at the same time?

Doha [Qatar] could be in a bit of a quandary, as it was also attacked by Iran in June...

All of the Arab states are still at war with each other, and in low level civil wars within themselves, perpetuating their 1000 years forever tribal wars of the ruling families.

Saudi Arabia is particularly vulnerable due to its oil wealth and royal mismanagement and corruption...

And who knows what happens in Iran next? That area is suspiciously out of the news at present.


... Meanwhile, a small area between Israel and the sea is a fabulous focus of funded misery and media attention profits.

And people are trapped as pawns of the games played from abroad.


All deadly games of politics.

All in the (un)holy lands.


Instead:

Be Excellent to All!
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Hum, if the Hamas government officials were in Qutar as recognized diplomatic representatives? Could that force Doha into war on the illegal aggressor? Isn't protection of diplomats part of international agreements? Wouldn't a real country have first used legal and diplomatic requests or demands before the gravest actions? Don't only terrorists simply strike out?

You suggest Afghanistan's Taliban government simply missed to recognize Osama bin Laden as, e.g. a cultural attaché of the Saudi's Kabul embassy? Imagine, this whole war on terror could have been prevented; diplomacy would have solved the conflict if just a lazy bureaucrat had prepared a letter of recognition. Too bad!

How many years into ceasefire negotiations between Israel and Hamas in Doha already, mediated by the "neutral" Qatari government? Informed about by the "impartial" state-funded Al Jazeera... And they still harbor the Hamas leadership and financially support them?

Don't you think Israel's government had urged Qatar many times to stop supporting Hamas terrorist within the past years? I'm convinced the U.S. did that as well. The Qatari Emir choose to ignored it. Some kind of affluence induced hubris; loss of ethical principles (c.f. the rights of the 10% Qatari citizens (just ~350K) vs. those of the 90% majority of non-citizens (Asian workforce) in Qatar).

So, if Doha is "forced into a war on an aggressor"... who will fight in their just war? The sons of super-rich, satiated Qataris? Or their exploited workforce of Pakistanis, Nepalis, Bangladeshis...? That's a joke... This Emirate's sovereign existence depends on the U.S. shielding of threats from their hereditary enemy, the Mullahs, and suppressing conflicts between them and greedy Arab neighbors. Seems, the Americans unlearned how to express U.S. interests in clear language behind closed doors in the Middle East...

History could teach governments that when they harbor, support, equip, or train terrorists, these terrorists' warfare eventually backfires and not sparing the terror supporters.

• Lebanon, e.g.: 1978, 2006, 2024.
  
• Tunisia 1985,
  
• Kabul 2001-2021,
  
• Tehran 2025, (Iran's Revolutionary Guards (IRCG), designated a terrorist organization by US, AUS, CAN, SWE, Saudis, Bahrain, ...)
  
• Yemen 2015, 2023-2025
  

--> compare: no attacks on Egypt since Camp David Accords of 1979. Peace prevails. [...Egypt no longer tolerates terrorists, nor warmongering presidents].

All of the Arab states are still at war with each other, and in low level civil wars within themselves, perpetuating their 1000 years forever tribal wars of the ruling families.

"The value of the tribes is defensive only and their real sphere is guerilla warfare. They are intelligent, and very lively, almost reckless, but too individualistic to endure commands, or fight in line, or to help each other. It would, I think, be impossible to make an organized force out of them"; T.E. Lawrence ("Lawrence of Arabia").

The British conquered and colonized them all. They extracted the oil and left them a few breadcrumbs. The Americans found this exploitative and unethical. They took over before the Soviets did and negotiated a fair deal for everyone, enabling this unimaginable Arab wealth.

If Lawrence were still alive, he would have predicted where this would lead: a perpetually simmering witch's cauldron, whose sorcerer must constantly prevent it from exploding.

Is Hamas, a designated terrorist organisation, the government of Gaza?

Yes. Israel has already proved it. They engaged in peace talks.

Which brings up the the rules of war on peace talks, white flags and war crimes. Israel certainly has proven it does not honor international agreements. The world will reevaluate how it interacts with them. Canada has already announced so.

The choices they made will have consequences far removed than the little action.

I don't understand the logic, that says, talking to a terrorist group how keeps attacking you and lobbing rockets, made from iron pipes, paid for by us, makes the terrorist group the government of the area they operate from.

I don't understand the logic, that says, talking to a terrorist group how keeps attacking you and lobbing rockets, made from iron pipes, paid for by us, makes the terrorist group the government of the area they operate from.

Well, Substitute DPRK* for Hamas and the only difference is DPRK pays for is own munitions or steals the money to build them.

Point being that being terrorist and being a government are not mutually exclusive.

*or Taliban (and likely several others.)

All those who hate the Jewish people are anti-semetics, and will always be so.
I pity you who do.

Meow.

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Is Hamas, a designated terrorist organisation, the government of Gaza?

Yes. Israel has already proved it. They engaged in peace talks.

Which brings up the the rules of war on peace talks, white flags and war crimes. Israel certainly has proven it does not honor international agreements. The world will reevaluate how it interacts with them. Canada has already announced so.

...and others... e.g. Germany recently stopped financing all bilateral projects... (due to domestic political pressure within the government).

You claim, Israel acknowledged Hamas as the government by engaging in peace talks with them... I disagree. Governments acknowledge each other by formal diplomatic interaction, diplomatic notes, etc., not by mere indirect talks in war times mediated by third parties. Hamas does not honor any international agreements; even not the most basic ones like e.g. the Hague Conventions (1899/1907) on land warfare. I would expect the world community to also reevaluate how they interact with them.

Appeasement, leniency, understanding—that's what I see. How is the international community exerting any pressure on Hamas? Their leaders are sanctioned? Fine, they live a luxury life in Qatar; Their fighters are paid well. They can expect further heroes' compensation after any ceasefire. The so-called martyrs' families are given lifelong honorary pensions, paid out even today by Mahmoud Abbas's Palestinian Authority, financed by the West.

So the opposite happened: the world community, directly or indirectly supports Hamas; floods them with supplies (that is, enables them to monopolize, steal, pillage, barter... aid goods...thus, generates revenues to further pay fighters, ammunition...).

Appeasing Hamas and alienating Israel instead achieves one thing: It will prolong the war and the suffering.

The choices they made will have consequences far removed than the little action.

I agree. The consequences will be grave and long-lasting. The need to respond to terrorist acts often forces governments to act against their long-term interests in order to retaliate and reestablish deterrence.

I don't understand the logic, that says, talking to a terrorist group how keeps attacking you and lobbing rockets, made from iron pipes, paid for by us, makes the terrorist group the government of the area they operate from.

Well, Substitute DPRK* for Hamas and the only difference is DPRK pays for is own munitions or steals the money to build them.

DPRK is since 1991 a UN member state, one of 193. Gaza, West Bank, or an imagined "Palestine" is not. The Palestinian Authority was granted "observer status" in UNGA. It doesn't control just an inch of the territory it claims to be the "sovereign Palestine" since the late 1980s. That's the difference. Btw. the DPRK is a textbook example of why it was a mistake to recognize them as a UN member without first forcing them to negotiate a peace treaty with ROK to formally end the Korea War. It's appeasement not to, prolongs unsolved frozen or hot conflicts; making their solution even more difficult. The same could be expected for a sovereign "Palestine".

Point being that being terrorist and being a government are not mutually exclusive.

Indeed.

Unfortunately, since Roosevelt established the UN to prevent further world wars, we learned that the only way to preserve world peace also requires to tolerate governments of sovereign states (recognized UN members) which became terrorists, torturing or slaughtering their population at will, as long as they don't "harm" other sovereign states ("harm"... an unclear spectrum ranging from "disturbing" to "annihilating"). Deviating from the non-interference principle by 'goodie' great powers out of (claimed) humanitarian reasons (e.g. NATO vs. Serbia/Kosovo 1999) assured the 'baddy' great powers to also ignore this principle to further their interests...

The non-interference principle does not apply to a Palestine, Gaza, resp. West Bank (still lacking sovereignty). In the case of sovereign countries the question boils down to who is the legitimate government? Maduro in Venezuela? Lukachenko in Belarus? The Taliban in 2001's Afghanistan?.... or just de-facto like Hamas in Gaza, Houthis in parts of Yemen)? Taliban controlled large parts of the territory, but just three Arab countries recognized them, back then.

The enshrined principles of sovereignty and non-interference, developed in the 1940s (ending the sovereign right of warfare) presume that all recognized UN member states are modern nation-states (that is, homogeneous ethnic, resp. culturally homogeneous nations, forming a people without irreconcilable domestic differences, .... rational, enlightened and educated... etc.). Just look into e.g. Africa and compare state borders drawn on maps by colonial powers with settlement areas of various peoples. This misconception led to the UN's failure to maintain world peace.

So Hamas is the government of Gaza? Do they feed the people or UNRWA? Do they built and organize schools, hospitals, civil infrastructure or UNRWA? I'd say UNRWA is the current government of Gaza; powerless, infiltrated, hijacked and blackmailed by Hamas. No one recognizes a bunch of murderous lowlifes as sovereign leaders by just talking to them or exchanging a written proposal.

I think we have to draw a line between the "Jewish people", who, in the main, just want to live in peace with their neighbours and certain parts of their government who are bent on destroying not only their neighbours, but also their own societal structures.

---

Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I think we have to draw a line between the "Jewish people", who, in the main, just want to live in peace with their neighbours and certain parts of their government who are bent on destroying not only their neighbours, but also their own societal structures.

You've got that spot on Rob.

Even 1 of the heads of the Australian Jewry council 2 weeks back (while these forums were down) stated that the biggest threat to Jews around the world is Adolf Benji, his government and the IDF.

But I reckon that those who shout "antisemitism" are themselves nothing but Islamophobics, and yet a lot of Palestinians are Christians.

Spot on. It isn't about the Jewish people, the objection is to the Zionist state that promotes itself at "better" than others. Just like the current American religious government is doing. Both need regime change.

I think we have to draw a line between the "Jewish people", who, in the main, just want to live in peace with their neighbours and certain parts of their government who are bent on destroying not only their neighbours, but also their own societal structures.

You've got that spot on Rob.

Even 1 of the heads of the Australian Jewry council 2 weeks back (while these forums were down) stated that the biggest threat to Jews around the world is Adolf Benji, his government and the IDF.

But I reckon that those who shout "antisemitism" are themselves nothing but Islamophobics, and yet a lot of Palestinians are Christians.

Spot on... but I miss the clarification that "Jewish people" aren't automaticly Israeli citizens. But the current pro Hamas furor everywhere threats them as if. That's blatant antisemitism, not just antizionism. It's disgusting. I also reject the notion to label everyone who criticizes Arabs resp. Palestinians as "islamophobe" if there are obvious reasons for criticism.

Just a few days ago the Belgian government intervened and forced organizers to cancel a concert of the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra in Ghent (Belgium). The reason; the orchestra's director, a citizen of Berlin, was born in Tel Aviv and is also the acting director of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. That's not about Netanyahu or the Gaza war. It's pure antisemitism... nothing less... exerted by an European government.

another point: Influential Jewish leaders, even religious ones already in the late 19th century opposed the idea of zionism. There always had been two Jewish factions; pro and against. The course of history proofed the zionists right; my country with the greatest impact on this. The Jewish people need a sovereign home state, a safe place they are assured will always grant them immigration. Hamas... most Palestinians disagree. Without, their existence was threatened everywhere on three continents; because they were Jewish, that is, non-Christian, resp. non-Muslim... an exclusionary religious minority that does not fully integrate in societies anywhere and thus doesn't merge with the majority over time (cf. Amish people).

I admit, another PM, another government would be helpful to calm down things. But it is up to the Israeli voters to make this happen. It's not the business of an infuriated, brainwashed pro-Hamas mob worldwide. To the opposite, they actually prolong Netanyahu's time in office.

All reports come to the same conclusion and the latest is no different.

Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, UN commission of inquiry says.

Meanwhile the slaughter and war crimes are accelerating.

Israel launches ground offensive on Gaza City.

And Adolf Benji is jeopardising the Abraham Accords.

Gulf states 'questioning the efficiency of their military cooperation with the United States'.

The present day reality of Gaza:


Saving Gaza's past
wrote:

... After international experts pressed Israel to give an extra day for the evacuation, Fadel and others remotely guided Palestinian volunteers and aid workers through an incredible feat. Racing against the clock, they moved away six lorryloads of artefacts – including fragile ceramics, mosaics and centuries-old skeletons – to a safer place across the bombed-out city...

... The history of the Gaza Strip dates back more than 5,000 years. In antiquity, it was a key port on the Mediterranean coast – on a busy trade route between Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great besieged Gaza. In 1799, Napoleon stayed here.

The tiny territory, as we know it today, has seen different civilisations including Canaanites, Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Jewish Hasmoneans, Romans, Christian Byzantines and Muslim Mamluks and Ottomans. All have left their mark...

... At times, Hamas celebrated finds from the ancient past. But it also built housing projects and military camps on archaeological sites – including Anthedon, Tel es-Sakan, a rare 4,500-year-old Bronze Age settlement and a 6th Century synagogue in Gaza City...

... Israel blames Hamas for the destruction of important historic sites. The Israeli military tells me "Hamas deliberately embeds its military assets within densely populated civilian areas – Hamas acted and continues to act in the vicinity of, or beneath, cultural heritage sites."...

... A property developer, he explains how his wide-ranging collection came from his workers' finds on building sites and pieces caught in the nets of fishermen, including an exquisite small statue of the Greek goddess Aphrodite now on display in Paris.

"I know all the operators of shovels who excavate, so I convinced them, if you find a piece of marble or pottery, don't destroy it, keep it in a good condition and give it to me and I will give you an allowance," Jawdat says. "They thought that I am a little bit crazy looking for pottery and stones, but day by day we convinced them that it's our history."...

... "However, I say, "thank God that these archaeological pieces are present here and not in Gaza," ...

(Would 'Hamas' wait even one day so that some good could be done?... And yet...)


... All in our very deadly political world...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The present day reality of Gaza:

Saving Gaza's past
wrote:

The tiny territory, as we know it today, has seen different civilisations including Canaanites, Egyptians, Philistines, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Jewish Hasmoneans, Romans, Christian Byzantines and Muslim Mamluks and Ottomans. All have left their mark...

The BBC is really funny. Such a long list of different civilizations, ...and invaders (e.g. Romans, Persians, and Catholic crusaders btw...) that have left their mark on Gaza.

And they completely left out themselves, the British, who left the strongest mark on Gaza in the 20th century; ending the Ottoman, resp. the Arab rule in Gaza.

In WW I the British Empire (including Irish, ANZAC: Australians and Kiwis), while fighting the Ottomans, besieged Gaza in three battles in 1917. The Third Battle of Gaza destroyed Gaza City heavily and ended with the British victory: Field Marshal Sir Edmund Allenby conquered Gaza on Nov 7th 1917. Later, in December, Jerusalem was conquered too.

Thanks for that.

Indeed so...

Our BBC reporting of Gaza is worryingly biased and incomplete... Curiously so...

Meanwhile, all reporting of the Hamas backer and controller, Iran, has gone completely quiet...


So why?

All in our very deadly political world...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)