When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?

Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 17 · 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 . . . 31 · Next

AuthorMessage
Profile Mr. Kevvy Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 15 May 99
Posts: 3776
Credit: 1,114,826,392
RAC: 3,319
Canada
Message 2128609 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 23:34:02 UTC - in response to Message 2128602.  
Last modified: 16 Nov 2023, 23:35:49 UTC

We should no longer debate whether children or/and babies were massacred by Hamas using brutal method A or more gentle B.


That entirely misses the point. The point is the the so-called good guys lied about it when it was unnecessary to, so any later statements from them are now dubious.

There is no denial that they were attacked first and have the right to defend themselves. But if they have to make up lies escalating the offense to them, it indicates that they want to unjustifiably escalate their reprisals going beyond mere defense, to wanton destruction and vengeance. This, they seem to have done.
(Shades of 9/11...)
ID: 2128609 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20271
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2128616 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 1:31:26 UTC
Last modified: 17 Nov 2023, 1:32:53 UTC

Anyone else noticed that none of the reporters inside Gaza ever mention the word Hamas?...

... And it takes two to make a shootout...


Stay safe folks?
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2128616 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19049
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2128618 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 1:34:14 UTC - in response to Message 2128609.  

But you might consider that Israel's citizens are never going to feel secure until the terrorists are removed from the local area.
Stopping short of removing the terrorists completely, as in every case in the past 75 years, has only led to the terrorists rebuilding their strength, often aided by international efforts to rebuild for the Palestinians. Examples of which are stolen cement used in tunnels and water pipes used for rockets.
And because Gazza is so densely populated and the terrorists put their assets inside residential and public building, and also use public spaces close to hospitals and schools to launch those rockets, then collateral damage is always going to be a problem.
Do you not fire or bombard because there are innocent Palestinians close by or in the same buildings and let the terrorists survive to attack Israel again, or do you bombard to kill the terrorists and hope that the collateral damage is minimal, because if it isn't the terrorists are going to broadcast to the world that the IDF has murdered 100's more innocents and get support, based on false facts.
ID: 2128618 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19049
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2128619 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 1:39:00 UTC - in response to Message 2128616.  

Anyone else noticed that none of the reporters inside Gaza ever mention the word Hamas?...

... And it takes two to make a shootout...


Stay safe folks?
Martin

Probably because the reporters lives will be art risk, because they referred to an internationally recognised terrorist group, and Hamas insists on being recognised as the government of Gaza to everybody in Gaza.
ID: 2128619 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30643
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2128622 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 1:58:20 UTC - in response to Message 2128618.  

But you might consider that Israel's citizens are never going to feel secure until the terrorists are removed from the local area.
Stopping short of removing the terrorists completely, as in every case in the past 75 years, has only led to the terrorists rebuilding their strength, often aided by international efforts to rebuild for the Palestinians. Examples of which are stolen cement used in tunnels and water pipes used for rockets.
And because Gazza is so densely populated and the terrorists put their assets inside residential and public building, and also use public spaces close to hospitals and schools to launch those rockets, then collateral damage is always going to be a problem.
Do you not fire or bombard because there are innocent Palestinians close by or in the same buildings and let the terrorists survive to attack Israel again, or do you bombard to kill the terrorists and hope that the collateral damage is minimal, because if it isn't the terrorists are going to broadcast to the world that the IDF has murdered 100's more innocents and get support, based on false facts.
You have to make the calculation, is the bad press from blowing up a hospital filled with innocents more expedient than the cost to send in ground troops to route out the enemy one by one in an urban area? Perhaps if you can't pay to reduce collateral damage to near zero then you best not piss off the enemy so they have no reason to hate you.
ID: 2128622 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20271
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2128623 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 2:10:52 UTC - in response to Message 2128622.  
Last modified: 17 Nov 2023, 2:12:53 UTC

Except...

What when the 'enemy', or rather, adversary, has been indoctrinated for a lifetime and brought up weaponised into a living hatred regardless of all reality?


Stay safe folks?
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2128623 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Wiggo
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 24 Jan 00
Posts: 34744
Credit: 261,360,520
RAC: 489
Australia
Message 2128624 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 2:24:00 UTC - in response to Message 2128623.  

Except...

What when the 'enemy', or rather, adversary, has been indoctrinated for a lifetime and brought up weaponised into a living hatred regardless of all reality?


Stay safe folks?
Martin
And the Israeli government stance and it's "settler" attacks is just continuing to make it a breeding ground for terrorists.

It's time to get real.
ID: 2128624 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19049
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2128631 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 5:21:57 UTC - in response to Message 2128622.  

There are times, like before any invasion, when the response to rocket attacks is by artillery, in what is called a counter battery response, or by aircraft.

And as I told you before, it is the responsibility of the attacking commanding officer to ensure the safety of all people within the local area. So if there is collateral damage caused by return fire, he is responsible.

Something most people fail to understand.
ID: 2128631 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scrooge McDuck
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 99
Posts: 670
Credit: 1,674,173
RAC: 54
Germany
Message 2128647 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 11:55:13 UTC

Why did Hamas kidnap so many civilians? Was this number planned? Or did it result from the unexpected coincidence that IDF forces were so far away that they had 10+ hours to take hostages? Hamas wants to free its terrorists and murderers from Israeli prisons. Israel exchanged 1000 convicted Palestinians for one slight soldier, Gilad Shalit. Didn't it occur to Hamas that this blackmailing model is not scalable? The high number of hostages is now a good reason to turn over every stone in Gaza. If Hamas had no hostages, Israel would be in a much worse position internationally. Doesn't seem well thought out to me.
ID: 2128647 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scrooge McDuck
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 99
Posts: 670
Credit: 1,674,173
RAC: 54
Germany
Message 2128648 - Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 13:16:22 UTC - in response to Message 2128624.  

What when the 'enemy', or rather, adversary, has been indoctrinated for a lifetime and brought up weaponised into a living hatred regardless of all reality?
And the Israeli government stance and it's "settler" attacks is just continuing to make it a breeding ground for terrorists.

It's time to get real.
I don't see this as the main problem. Such attacks can be easily stopped by police or IDF. It's only a political question.

I think, the main problem is the growing proportion of religious-orthodox Jews and the declining number of rational, secular leftist in Israel which form today's reality. There are fanatic groups among the settlers who indoctrinate their kids (and they have many kids) in religious schools not unlike the Palestinians do. They don't teach them to kill the Arabs. But they spread the idea of their holy task to expand Judaism. Jewish rule should regain all of their historic lands in the former kingdoms of Judea and Samaria, the core territories of their future Israel. Step by step, settlement by settlement. That contains all lands west of Jordan river including Gaza---the one state solution. Palestinians have to live under Israel's rule, without their own state in the spaces between. That's as unrealistic as Hamas ideology. But such realistic concerns no longer reach these lunatics (decades of Palestinian terror supported their beliefs). They plan to achieve a peace by power and superiority, not by compromise. This policy corresponds to the core beliefs of Benjis Likud party since its foundation in 1977. It's not Benji to get real. Israelis have to.

A rational autocratic Israeli leader would have to destroy the settler movement. They are endangering the existing state. But Israel is a democracy wherein these fundamentalists gain more an more political influence. They don't want to return an inch of their lands. Sharon's move to dissolve the (small!) settlements in Gaza almost split up his Likud party back then. He and others left. It's not too late... but each democracy gets destroyed from within as soon as rational citizens become a minority. Bad outlook for more peaceful times.
ID: 2128648 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30643
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2128733 - Posted: 19 Nov 2023, 15:28:26 UTC

Generous Jews let two fuel truck a day into Gaza. FYI my local Costco gasoline station (one station 16 pumps) receives between 7 and 10 fuel truck deliveries a day. And California has the highest percentage of EV.

Facts.
ID: 2128733 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20271
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2128738 - Posted: 19 Nov 2023, 18:31:21 UTC - in response to Message 2128733.  

Facts...

Yes. It will be very interesting for any reporting/accounting for where that fuel goes and for what use...


Hopefully, ALL of that fuel goes to help the civilians of Gaza. However...?

Stay safe?...
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2128738 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30643
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2128750 - Posted: 19 Nov 2023, 23:17:33 UTC - in response to Message 2128738.  

ID: 2128750 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19049
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2128761 - Posted: 20 Nov 2023, 7:14:38 UTC

Where is the outrage?

https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1726230759806296502
Hamas says three "martyrdom" fighters entered the al-Rantissi hospital to attack an Israeli position.

Looks like one of them may have detonated a suicide vest?
ID: 2128761 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scrooge McDuck
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 99
Posts: 670
Credit: 1,674,173
RAC: 54
Germany
Message 2128798 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 8:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 2128761.  

Where is the outrage?

https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1726230759806296502
Hamas says three "martyrdom" fighters entered the al-Rantissi hospital to attack an Israeli position.

Looks like one of them may have detonated a suicide vest?
No outrage because you can't know what happened there. What Hamas is telling are lies. They deny acts of violence against civilians and they boast their "heroic deeds" against the IDF.

What I see: three armed men are running out of the picture to the left. From the camera position, someone shoots an RPG at the entrance of the building. The smoke from the rocket propellant can be briefly seen.

Let's hope that the Hamas spook will soon end. Palestinians deserve better leaders than such lunatics.

The outrage I miss most is the one over Putin and Assad, who indiscriminately and extensively destroyed major cities in Syria and thus drove its former population to emigrate. But also this conflict is complex. Many culprits and terrorist forces on both sides.

The current global outrage is a selective one, controlled from distant countries and long in the making.
ID: 2128798 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scrooge McDuck
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 99
Posts: 670
Credit: 1,674,173
RAC: 54
Germany
Message 2128802 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 9:59:05 UTC - in response to Message 2128631.  
Last modified: 21 Nov 2023, 9:59:55 UTC

And as I told you before, it is the responsibility of the attacking commanding officer to ensure the safety of all people within the local area. So if there is collateral damage caused by return fire, he is responsible.

Something most people fail to understand.
This is true from the perspective of interstate war. But “officer” or “responsibility” are meaningless words for terrorists. That's a dilemma.

You cannot allow terrorists to transform a territory into a terrorist state with millions of inhabitants, access to extensive funds and heavy weapons. In the case of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and ISIS in the Middle East, the International Community overwhelmingly took this position as well. Not now. Because it was the community itself, the major UN states, the large donors that made this mistake. Out of diplomatic brashness and laziness. Hard to finally admit that.
ID: 2128802 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19049
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2128805 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 11:17:52 UTC - in response to Message 2128802.  

But Hamas claim to be the government of Gaza, therefore with that claim they want to play in the big league and so they should follow the rules laid out by the UN.
They are always complaining to the UN and demand aid through them.

So, No, even though we regard them as terrorists they should do everything to protect their people the Palestinians.
Unfortunately as terrorists Hamas will hide behind everything they can, which means their people get killed and injured.
ID: 2128805 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30643
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2128809 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 14:11:58 UTC - in response to Message 2128805.  

The UN and the rest of the world can't treat Hamas as a government, because if they did then they would have to treat Israel as an invader and force Israel to pay to clean up the mess it has made. It would cost the UN money to do this and they will not spend money and the member states will not give them any money.
ID: 2128809 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Scrooge McDuck
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Nov 99
Posts: 670
Credit: 1,674,173
RAC: 54
Germany
Message 2128811 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 14:31:13 UTC - in response to Message 2128809.  
Last modified: 21 Nov 2023, 14:46:29 UTC

The UN and the rest of the world can't treat Hamas as a government, because if they did then they would have to treat Israel as an invader and force Israel to pay to clean up the mess it has made. It would cost the UN money to do this and they will not spend money and the member states will not give them any money.
If Hamas is the government of Gaza, then Israel is the invader as soon as it takes military action against countering that government's act of war? No, I don't get it.

[EDIT to add:] Americans and Brits invaded Germany in October 1944. Should they have been forced to pay to clean up the mess? This view confuses the attacker with the attacked.
ID: 2128811 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20271
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2128813 - Posted: 21 Nov 2023, 15:06:31 UTC
Last modified: 21 Nov 2023, 15:07:12 UTC

When will the world stop pandering to this in-action repeated Genocide ("ethnic cleansing")?


Sudan’s cycle of violence: ‘There is a genocide going on in west Darfur’
wrote:
The UN, independent researchers and charities all highlight the brutality of a conflict that has left 9,000 people dead and 5.6 million displaced in the past seven months

... paramilitaries arrived on the outskirts of Ardamata in early November ... fighters took men from homes that they then burned down; at least 800 people were killed and survivors were ordered to bury the dead...

... [fighters] went door-to-door in Ardamata, in west Darfur ... rounding up and killing people from the Masalit ethnic group...



Ongoing NOW. In an area with a UN presence...

How so?

Stay safe?
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2128813 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 . . . 17 · 18 · 19 · 20 · 21 · 22 · 23 . . . 31 · Next

Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.