When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?

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Message 2128437 - Posted: 12 Nov 2023, 23:22:12 UTC

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Message 2128464 - Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 18:12:06 UTC

Terrorist with RPG on steps at the entrance of the Al Quds hospital in Gaza City.

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Message 2128468 - Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 20:24:47 UTC

Is that picture any different to those of terrorist Israeli settlers who shoot Palestinians, destroying their homes and stealing their land as Israeli troops look on and do nothing, that is until Palestinians fight back and then they join in with the terrorist settlers?

You might want to search, Israeli settlers attack Palestinians, and check out all those stories that happened before the Hamas' attack.

Look Hamas itself is no different to the Israeli government, both are nothing more than terrorist organisations in my books, but who else is there ATM to defend innocent Palestinians that are being displaced and slaughtered (no matter what their religion is)?

Also remember that not all Israelis are Jews and not all Palestinians are Islamic. There are Christians and other minority religions also in the blend there.

As the west keeps on allowing this 1 sided crap to just continue on unabated.

Not only should the U.N. take control of Palestinian affairs it should also take control of Israeli affairs at the same time as I doubt that anything less will work.
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Message 2128478 - Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 21:38:00 UTC - in response to Message 2128468.  

What don't you understand about the cowardly actions of these terrorists.
They use hospitals and schools as firing positions that either provide safe cover that the IDF doesn't fire at or if the IDF fire at the terrorist, people like you will highlight as Israel 'attacking hospitals'.

Get real these terrorist don't care about Palestinians deaths and injuries any more than they do about Israeli or any other nation's casualties.

Take note that 20% of Israel's population are Arabs and live there most of the time, until terrorist attacks, with a reasonably good living and with better health care and education.
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Message 2128481 - Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 22:45:12 UTC

So you're saying then that all Israeli settlers (that are encouraged by their own government) are not terrorists (while doing the same things as Hamas does) and all Palestinians are regardless?
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Message 2128482 - Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 23:47:50 UTC - in response to Message 2128481.  
Last modified: 13 Nov 2023, 23:53:24 UTC

Note that in c2007, Israeli settlers were moved out of Gaza at the behest of the Israeli government, by fellow Israelis, as part of allowing 'free' elections to take place in Gaza for Gaza to govern itself, in peace.

Israel even left behind, as a gift, a prosperous area of greenhouses and plantations to give Gaza food and farming and international trade.


What happened next was that Hamas, sponsored by Iran, moved in.

The other political parties there were murdered, literally, with bloodshed and intra-Palastinian shootouts.

Hamas seized control.

The infrastructure left by Israel, and anything Israeli, were all burnt and destroyed, leaving the people of Gaza with nothing.


And the rest is history... As supported by the UN, Iran, Qatar, and Russia.

And Hamas instituted a baby boom, with women paid to make babies. Everyone there was then religiously taught hatred towards anything and everything Israeli and The West.


A large number of those Gaza launched 9000 rockets (and counting still!) were made from metal water pipes provided by the UN...

(Use plastic next time?)


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Message 2128498 - Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 9:46:27 UTC - in response to Message 2128331.  
Last modified: 14 Nov 2023, 9:52:29 UTC

The question is what have they done or what do they believe or what do they espouse that is so offensive that so many peoples want to cast them into the sea?
The Arab view: Israel is another Crusader state after the Christian ones of the Middle Ages. Israel rejects Islamic rule. Its Jewish citizens cannot be converted to Islam. So, Israel has to be destroyed, its inhabitants cast into the sea. An eternally annoying thorn in the center of pan-Arabism. Israel also formally holds the sovereignty (occupation) of al-Aqsa in the city of al-Quds for no reason since 1967. Because there are NO older Jewish places of worship below al-Aqsa which Jews incorrectly name: Temple Mount in Jerusalem, only al-Aqsa Mosque [EDIT] since 30,000 years, since the creation of the world [/EDIT] and the Dome of the Rock (btw.: a victory monument). That's what Arab religious leaders, e.g. Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, are preaching today. Moderate Arab regimes which separate religion from statehood accept Israel's existence, its Jewish cultural roots there, and confirm existence of ancient Jewish holy sites. Democratic elections in Arab states led... and further will lead to victories of Muslim Brotherhood (e.g. Egypt) or Hamas (Gaza) which are fundamentally the same: Islamists fighting for an Arab Caliphate. All autocratic Arab regimes fear such islamist revolutions of their religious fanatic citizens. So, they are forced to support anti-Jewish hate to varying degrees. (it seems France's Macron too...)

In short, the cause which fuels today's hate and the cycle of violence from BOTH sides.
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Message 2128500 - Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 10:34:29 UTC - in response to Message 2128398.  

As I said before, be very aware of what the Israeli propaganda machine wants you to believe.

Benji is controlling the media reports coming out from there any way he can and most media is towing his line or their reporters will either be expelled or wind up like at least 39 others whether you believe it or not.

Benji's mob has even admitted that the deaths of civilians was actually about 200 less than 1st put out now.
You often warn us about Israel's propaganda machine, never about Hamas' one. Both sides present and explain their view. It's US who are able to dig deeper, who have to think, to decide which one is more trustworthy. In each war, truth dies first. Sure, there is Israeli propaganda. But I think it's insufficient to say: Israel is wrong and not to mention Hamas at all. Everything Gazan is "Hamas" as long as they hold Gazan residents hostage. I feel sick when I think about the (Palestinian) freelance "journalists" from CNN, AP, etc. who directly participated in the Hamas bloodlust as embedded "journalists".

And let's not forget about Mossad's wheelings and dealings either over the decades near on world wide.
They catched, among others, Adolf Eichmann in Argentina in order to put him on trial in Jerusalem and ultimately sentence him to death. This was absolutely necessary.
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Message 2128501 - Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 13:37:17 UTC - in response to Message 2128341.  

Antarctica, Russia Siberia, Mongolia, Northern Canada, Alaska interior, Nevada, Brazil, Libya, Chad, Niger, Mali, Mauritania, Algeria, Egypt, Kazakhstan, and Australia. Some of these are likely too ecologically sensitive, others unwilling and others have populated pockets that may strenuously object.
Pointless considerations of the past. The Jewish state exists: there, west of the Jordan river. Jews know their history. Never again will Israel, the only Jewish state, allow its citizens to be expelled from their historical territories, from whoever. Neighboring Arab states have long understood this. Just not Palestinians, PLO, Hamas, their religious leader... and Iran. Hopefully, Iran will never wage an open war to push Israel, push the Jews 'to the sea'. Consequences would likely be apocalyptic.

I am confident that the aftermath of this current conflict will see a left-liberal government in Israel and a reflection process among Palestinians as to whether a lasting peace within a two-state solution is preferable to the pointless eternal 'from the river to the sea' of Hamas. Maybe this time.
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Message 2128505 - Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 16:10:01 UTC - in response to Message 2128482.  

Note that in c2007, Israeli settlers were moved out of Gaza at the behest of the Israeli government, by fellow Israelis, as part of allowing 'free' elections to take place in Gaza for Gaza to govern itself, in peace.
I have a question.

Is there any chance to reactivate the Oslo peace process? Or do we have to start from the beginning? Will the catastrophic example of Gaza prevent Israel from again trusting a Palestinian self government from day 1? Does a realistic peace plan may require an ongoing military occupation (e.g. 10... 20 years), like after the Balkan wars in SE Europe, to suppress terror? Maybe a foreign occupation of the Palestinian state can achieve that, which Israel trusts sufficiently... then returning sovereignty to Palestinians over years, step by step (borders, harbors, air traffic, security forces, ...). maybe by Jordan, Egypt, Saudis? Had there been other ideas?

To stop pandering Israel... which influential countries can convince (or force)
- Israel to tolerate...
- and reliable islamic country or countries to provide...
... an assertative occupation force?
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Message 2128506 - Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 18:38:19 UTC - in response to Message 2128468.  
Last modified: 14 Nov 2023, 18:43:20 UTC

Is that picture any different to those of terrorist Israeli settlers who shoot Palestinians, destroying their homes and stealing their land as Israeli troops look on and do nothing, that is until Palestinians fight back and then they join in with the terrorist settlers?

You might want to search, Israeli settlers attack Palestinians, and check out all those stories that happened before the Hamas' attack.
This has to be stopped. No, it must have been stopped decades before (1994 peace treaty with Jordan).

A collection of oddities: (Wiggo's source and one which I referred to before)

  • 0.6M settlers (among them aggressive, terrorist colonists); growing numbers --> far-right
  • indifferent occupation troops <-- powerless superiors <-- government dependent on settler votes
  • only 41% of children still in public schools, most other in orthodox-religious ones; contrary to secular socialist values of the past
  • already 50 % of school graduates exempt from military service, mostly orthodox, negligible few for conscientious reasons
  • ultra orthodox Jews; a Pacifist and fast growing share of all Israelis; --> nationalist, right-wing
  • declining mostly secular socialist Kibbuz movement, in close proximity to Gaza: but unarmed, defenseless; declining left-wing votes
  • progressive left-wing metropolitain elites --> blind to economic or occupation reality; indifferent to critical NGOs & declining peace movement
  • In poorest muncipalities 70% vote Likud or far-right bc Benji supports charitable aid, not trade unions anymore. Leftist forgot the poor.


The people of Israel? It seems, like everywhere in the West, this society is becoming totally divided.

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Message 2128553 - Posted: 15 Nov 2023, 19:58:54 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2023, 19:59:35 UTC

The things the IDF find in a hospital in Gazza, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmYWkquozk
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Message 2128562 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 0:05:43 UTC - in response to Message 2128553.  
Last modified: 16 Nov 2023, 0:07:09 UTC

The things the IDF find in a hospital in Gazza, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmYWkquozk
Really like this comment:
@craigevans6156 3 hours ago
I have had an MRI scan and I wasn’t allowed to have anything metal on my person when I entered the MRI suite. Do they think we are that stupid?

hummm
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12684907/California-Nurse-Pinned-MRI-accident.html
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Message 2128563 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 1:59:01 UTC - in response to Message 2128553.  

The things the IDF find in a hospital in Gazza, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmYWkquozk
The evening news on First German TV, "Tagesschau", explained to its viewers: “This information cannot be independently verified.” Directly before, they showed a video from the clinic published by the Hamas Ministry of Health that showed a dusty, smoke-filled corridor. An employee explained: result of Israel's attack; patients had to be moved so that they would not suffocate. No information on independent verification.

Conclusion: Hamas information is correct. Israel's may be untrue.
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Message 2128564 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 3:32:51 UTC
Last modified: 16 Nov 2023, 3:36:50 UTC

The things the IDF find in a hospital in Gazza, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmYWkquozk
It is alleged, but most likely staged yet again.

No one was there to actually film what was there to start with (except maybe the IDF, but where's that actual footage and properly time stamped without alteration?) and they had more than plenty of time to stage things well before any media was allowed to enter and see anything. Also where are these so called tunnels? Nothing but maintenance shafts were found

And if you bother to watch news from other sources (most already barred and their journalists killed because there's a whole other side to this story) you would've seen the blue prints of the complex and exactly where those Israeli forces actually were and at what times.

Even some of that mainstream media is now taking an "alleged" approach to their reporting from Israeli, but they also don't want to lose access to the Israeli side of things like many others have been.

It's all just Israeli propaganda at its best to suck in the gullible in yet again by watching just those networks that follow Israeli Benji's run to supreme supremacy over all (and more riches and power to him.

It all just reminds me of what Donny wants as well, but they're all only rejects from the "Hitler" mold. :-(
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Message 2128566 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 5:05:24 UTC

I just wonder how bad those terrorist filled tunnels under Neo-natal and pediatric beds are to the final solution. Obviously Benji needs them to be there. Otherwise he can't slaughter a generation (genocide). He knows that in ten or fifteen years all those babies who lost their moms and dads and a limb to his bombing campaign are going to be joining together to take action against those who hurt them. He knows he can't leave any alive or his grand babies ... .
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Message 2128582 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 12:57:06 UTC

I can't stand "genocide" anymore. Genocides are typically followed by an extreme decimation of the affected population. That's the purpose, the unique characteristic of "genocide". Examples include Armenians in the late Ottoman Empire, Circassians in what is now Russia's Black Sea coast, Nazi Holocaust, Tutsi in Rwanda. The one shouting "genocide" the loudest now, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, is imprisoning anyone in his country who publicly expresses that Turks slaughtered the Armenians of Eastern Turkey, today a proven, indisputable fact.

My point: I regularly miss: "alleged" for statements from videos that Hamas publishes. I also miss that you, who regularly denounce Israel's propaganda here, also address possible Hamas propaganda... from time to time. Is there no Hamas propaganda? For more than a decade, there have been sporadic reports in Western media by Western journalists who visited the hospital about Hamas' underground operations centre there - an open secret. Every video from al-Shifa hospital, from Hamas shows the truth?

Benji needs no tunnels. He is there because a bunch of rapists and murderers brutally killed more than thousand and hijacked 100..150 civilian Israelis, hold them hostage in Gaza. That's why Benji is there. Think of any other (alternative) Israeli PM, no... think of any foreign countries' PM, faced with the same situation. The answer is the same: There is no alternative to the destruction of Hamas.

No need to vent to Benji. He's already toast, just takes some time. I think, lawsuits will rob him his time in retirement.

With Donny... everything seems possible.
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Message 2128584 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 13:19:56 UTC

I'm not saying that Hamas doesn't provide it's own propaganda, but I don't bother with that stuff though I do respect what the actual doctors and staff who are working in those hospitals have to say and the images that they supply when they can.
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Message 2128598 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 17:53:45 UTC
Last modified: 16 Nov 2023, 18:03:31 UTC

Unfortunately and unnecessarily the Israeli government blew their credibility early on with the old clichéd baby-murderer canard. Already worn out in WWI and the Gulf War, sorry. They sacrificed the moral high ground of innocent (but unfortunately for sensationalism, adult) unarmed civilians being murdered by armed thugs while going about their peaceful activities; that wasn't enough I guess.

So, I'll need confirmation from a reputable source of either actual journalism or unbiased and reliable third party info (Amnesty or DWB or the UN or some more uninvolved and honest nation, for example) before I give any weight to these stories, from either side.
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Message 2128602 - Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 21:07:22 UTC

We should no longer debate whether children or/and babies were massacred by Hamas using brutal method A or more gentle B. There was enough physical evidence for criminal analysis and fact-based historical assessment in the future. I also see that Israel's public statements must be particularly true. You expect lies from Hamas. So, credibility is a precious and vulnerable asset.

But in a society of 2M Gazans, there is no independent opinion or reliable statements, neither from doctors at hospitals nor from local UN or Amnesty representatives as long as Gaza is hold hostage by this large terrorist force. Hamas controls media and public opinion. It's Orwell's "1984". Hamas leaders or their superiors abroad define the truth.
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Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?


 
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