When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?

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Message 2128250 - Posted: 9 Nov 2023, 21:59:35 UTC - in response to Message 2128249.  
Last modified: 9 Nov 2023, 22:11:35 UTC

The problem with the Two-State solution is that, the Palestinians have rejected it every time it has been offered.

What makes you think they will accept it this time?


edit] Gallup Poll, October 18, 2023 - Decline in Palestinian Support for a Two-State Solution
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Message 2128256 - Posted: 9 Nov 2023, 22:41:56 UTC - in response to Message 2128250.  

The problem with the Two-State solution is that, the Palestinians have rejected it every time it has been offered.

What makes you think they will accept it this time?


edit] Gallup Poll, October 18, 2023 - Decline in Palestinian Support for a Two-State Solution
That's basically because that's a U.S. driven plan and not 1 by neutral parties which makes it a non starter seeing as the U.S. has let the Israeli governments get away with its land theft and murder for far too long and backed them all the way while they were doing so.

So you can clearly see why the Palestinian people would reject their proposal.
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Message 2128267 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 0:48:08 UTC - in response to Message 2128256.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2023, 0:48:37 UTC

... So you can clearly see why the Palestinian people would reject their proposal.


For the 'recent' history, see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U


How does that fit with what can be 'negotiated'?

Really, the leaders and control controlling Iran, Hamas, and Russia, all look to operate in the same uncompromising expansionist merciless way...


Stay safe?...
Martin
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Message 2128272 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 3:02:15 UTC

Martin your link just reinforces the problems caused there are by western thinking while admitting that England was the start of the real causes of it in the first place by trying to give away something that wasn't really theirs to start with and then other western powers tried to step in, but they just kept on making the same mistakes, as your link proves, and you can't have a Palestinian state that's split into 2 separate bits (that just keep growing smaller year on year) and not connected to each other.

I'm sorry Martin but your western thinking seems to be clouded by the past based on western thinking only and not of a proper solution that can only be sorted out by the Middle East itself as well as an extremely much better suited Israeli government instead of the continuous stupid western unthinking led to this problem in the first place.

As I said before, I started this thread 18 months ago as I could see what was coming and western countries are just as guilty of this continuing forever carnage unless they change their ways of thinking that has caused more problems around the world than they cure.

I would really like a world of peace all around except that moronic greed and stupidity seems to rule these days. :-(
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Message 2128279 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 6:18:05 UTC - in response to Message 2128272.  

But the Arab thinking is that there should be no Israeli state

From the river to the sea
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Message 2128280 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 6:38:35 UTC

And yet the Israeli government advocates for the Palestinian removal or extermination as well, "from the river to the sea", and has done for quite some time with the basic approval of the west and still doing so.

So what is the difference?
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Message 2128281 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 6:46:41 UTC - in response to Message 2128280.  

And yet the Israeli government advocates for the Palestinian removal or extermination as well, "from the river to the sea", and has done for quite some time with the basic approval of the west and still doing so.

So what is the difference?

Israel doesn't attack it's neighbours with terrorists.

It's responses to terrorist attacks may be heavy handed, but if it fails to deal with these terrorists, then the world powers will need to find a substitute location for a Jewish state.
I could suggest a largely underpopulated country in the southern hemisphere.
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Message 2128282 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 8:11:16 UTC
Last modified: 10 Nov 2023, 8:12:34 UTC

Israel doesn't attack it's neighbours with terrorists.
I'm sorry, but they do and those terrorists are called "settlers".

It's responses to terrorist attacks may be heavy handed, but if it fails to deal with these terrorists, then the world powers will need to find a substitute location for a Jewish state.
I could suggest a largely underpopulated country in the southern hemisphere.
The Ord River area of northern W.A. was actually 1 spot suggested early in the debate, but was rejected, and yet again the English were trying to give away land that they had already illegally stolen from its indigenous people.

Your suggestion there is still just repeating the same mistakes of the past yet again and what have been the results so far? Not good at all.

Then there was Benji's order to Palestinians to move to the south end of Gaza be safe, but he bombs them there anyway where they're even more packed together killing more with each hit while in the West Bank his terrorists settlers still go about shooting innocent Palestinians and destroying their homes to grab their land in front of Benji's soldiers which don't lift a finger to stop them doing so.

You will not convince me to change my mind on this ever continuing and senseless revolving saga that the leaders of all sides are just as responsible for. All of them have the blood of innocents on their hands from all sides.
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Message 2128291 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 12:00:33 UTC

Fast forward 12mins 10secs into this and you may get my feelings and ideas on this subject pretty well.

https://www.facebook.com/abcplanetamerica/videos/1517050382376964
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Message 2128293 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 13:18:38 UTC - in response to Message 2128272.  

As I said before, I started this thread 18 months ago as I could see what was coming and western countries are just as guilty of this continuing forever carnage unless they change their ways of thinking that has caused more problems around the world than they cure.
I agree. But as I said before, that's an incomplete description. The Arab Mid East nations have to change their minds to. Many like Egypt, Jordan, Saudis already did. Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Qatar, did not, others in between, like Kuwait, Iraq. The Mid East is in a dead end. All parties have to change, not only Israel or the West.

But Israel should go first. As soon as Hamas is gone, Benji is toast. Israel's citizen have to understand the dead end. Hopefully, they'll vote differently. Israel's Left-wing parties have to change. They must leave their metropolitan bubble. Looking at lives in poor neighborhoods, rural areas, southern towns. Talking with moderate Palestinians in West Bank. (But how to gain trust in Gaza?). View reality, hardships of occupation in West Bank. Denounce and stop settler violence. Define true left-wing, liberal politics again. Then they could replace Benji's nationalist-religious bloc. I fear only a liberal government can step forward to peace talks or negotiations. I also fear only a nationalist government can remove settlers from West Bank like Sharon did in Gaza. The West should "encourage", that is: force rational MidEast Countries to be the Arab part in this process. They must control PLO resp. people that PLO can't control.
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Message 2128295 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 13:46:29 UTC

btw.: "PLO"... Palestine Liberation Organization. What do they want to liberate today? Pre-1948, post-1948 or post-1967? It's a good start to change logo and recognize Israel's borders as a UN member. Mahmoud Abbas seems to weak to declare (and survive it). Who choose this weak stupid puppet as Arafat's successor? A widely respected leader of all Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza with negotiating leverage is urgently needed. Abbas is not.
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Message 2128298 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 15:57:36 UTC - in response to Message 2128272.  

Martin your link just reinforces the problems caused there are by western thinking while admitting that England was the start of the real causes of it in the first place by trying to give away something that wasn't really theirs to start with and then other western powers tried to step in, but they just kept on making the same mistakes, as your link proves, and you can't have a Palestinian state that's split into 2 separate bits (that just keep growing smaller year on year) and not connected to each other.
The discussion whom land belongs is pointless. Wars change that.

If you say a future Palestinian state can't consist of two separated territories of Gaza and West Bank then there never will be such state. I agree to ("growing smaller...")

But such states existed before. West Berlin (2/3rds of Berlin with ~2M inhabitants) was from 1961-1989 an island surrounded by the heavily guarded Berlin Wall within Soviet occupied GDR, separated from West Germany's territory, but constitutional part of it. There were negotiated treaties for transit traffic, transit roads, transit trains, specific rules to observe, all heavily controlled by Eastern border forces, customs, intelligence services. A frightening, unpopular route for westerners which had to suffer from Eastern authorities arbitrariness and harassment. But all goods and people reached their destination.

Air traffic was possible via three narrow air corridors, allowed for Allied powers and their civil airlines (PanAm, British Airways, Air France). State officials must took the plane to prevent foreign infiltration.

If you want to coexist peacefully there is always a way to do so.
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Message 2128302 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 16:26:41 UTC - in response to Message 2128298.  

The discussion whom land belongs is pointless. Wars change that.
Europeans think so, the rest of the world does not accept that. Even donny boy when asked where he is from.
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Message 2128310 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 20:16:17 UTC - in response to Message 2128302.  
Last modified: 10 Nov 2023, 20:23:02 UTC

The discussion whom land belongs is pointless. Wars change that.
Europeans think so, the rest of the world does not accept that. Even donny boy when asked where he is from.

And despots choose whatever is their own convenient date in history for whatever they want. And even then, they additionally make up their own 'history' to make whatever dates fit their arbitrary greedy demands.

Should all this not be blamed upon the Roman occupation thousands of years ago? After all, they killed a religiously VIP... Cue: Monty Python and The Life of Brian.

And reality be damned?...


We have what is the "now".

With good and honest cooperation, we can move forwards from that and away from ongoing atrocities.

Hopefully all the more so for the lands where everyone there supposedly all worship the same one God, even if different names and different dogmas are used.


However, there are the 'small' problems with Iran, Qatar, and Russia... And their openly declared wars and pogroms.


Be excellent to one another!
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Message 2128317 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 21:01:36 UTC

Wow...

Just unbelievable...


Hamas are holding about 10,000 people hostage as a human shield:

Analysis: Israeli ground offensive inside the Gaza strip | Israel-Hamas war


And the count of rockets fired into Israel, to randomly kill anyone there, now exceed 9000 rockets.


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Message 2128325 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 22:03:35 UTC - in response to Message 2128310.  

Should all this not be blamed upon the Roman occupation thousands of years ago?

You forgot to include the successors of the Roman Empire, the RC church and their Popes.

And a quick thought.
Doesn't all the anti-Semitism seen around the world re-enforce the need for an Israeli State
Probably bigger than the present one, as only about a third of all those with Jewish connections live in Israel.
And shouldn't they be able to live in that country without their neighbours constantly attacking them and wishing to throw them into the sea.
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Message 2128329 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 22:23:05 UTC - in response to Message 2128325.  

The trouble is, we don't (yet) have the technology to create new land big enough to form a new or expanded country. Any expansion will be at the expense of taking existing land away from someone else.

It was easier in colonial days. Any land not already occupied by 'us' (whatever your current definition of 'us' might be), was by definition empty, and could be purloined at will.
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Message 2128331 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 22:28:17 UTC - in response to Message 2128325.  

The question is what have they done or what do they believe or what do they espouse that is so offensive that so many peoples want to cast them into the sea?
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Message 2128333 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 22:47:40 UTC - in response to Message 2128329.  

Maybe, some country that has area's of low density population might like to donate a suitably large area.

I can think of three countries that have large areas where few people live.
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Message 2128341 - Posted: 10 Nov 2023, 23:08:04 UTC - in response to Message 2128333.  

Maybe, some country that has area's of low density population might like to donate a suitably large area.

I can think of three countries that have large areas where few people live.

Antarctica, Russia Siberia, Mongolia, Northern Canada, Alaska interior, Nevada, Brazil, Libya, Chad, Niger, Mali, Mauritania, Algeria, Egypt, Kazakhstan, and Australia. Some of these are likely too ecologically sensitive, others unwilling and others have populated pockets that may strenuously object.
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Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?


 
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