When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?

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Message 2126997 - Posted: 16 Oct 2023, 11:06:48 UTC

For some positivity in the real world:


In our orchestra, Israelis and Palestinians found common ground. Our hearts are broken by this conflict
wrote:
We are all shocked by this terrible violence, but we won’t forget our shared humanity – or surrender our hopes for peace

Music is one way to bring people together – we are all equal human beings who deserve peace, freedom and happiness.

Events in Israel and Gaza have deeply shocked us all. There is no justification for Hamas’s barbaric terrorist acts against civilians, including children and babies. We must acknowledge this, and pause. And we must urge Israel to uphold international law as it prepares to invade Gaza. But then the next step is to ask: what now? Do we surrender to this terrible violence and let our striving for peace die – or do we insist that there must and can be peace? I am convinced that we have to move on and keep the larger context of the conflict in mind...



Note that over 20% of the population in Israel itself, are Arab Palestinians.

... Really 'just' somehow 'different' Palestinians to those that are controlled by Hamas and Iran?...


Hopefully, this rocky road to peace will soon lead to a lasting peace...

Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2127030 - Posted: 16 Oct 2023, 21:22:19 UTC - in response to Message 2126976.  

A remark: I can understand Gary's rational arguments. Having to consider such possibilities creates an icy chill.
Are you sure that it was Kim and not Iran that was testing in North Korea? Can you think of a reason Iran might not want to advertise it has nukes, just yet? Does it matter if Kim is willing to supply Iran (and Russia) with war materials for hard cash?
Nobody can.
Iran operates an enrichment facility in Natanz at great technical and financial expense. So pariahs don't seem willing to trade such hot stuff either. I remember that certain isotopes in enriched nuclear materials differ depending on where it was made. The enriched materials as well as bombs made from them leave their unique fingerprint. Kim doesn't want his fingerprint on Iran's bomb. What are the chances that Kim still sells this stuff? Yes, not zero. But I can follow Gary's argument Iran may develops bomb designs in cooperation with North Korea using Kim's nuclear material in NKorea. Iran then may manifacture its own bomb based on Kim's plan. Possible.

Can you think of a reason Iran might not want to advertise it has nukes, just yet? Does it matter if Kim is willing to supply Iran (and Russia) with war materials for hard cash? And think of this, Kim has the radioactive materials, Iran has the precision manufacturing for the electronics.
Would Iran use its own bomb without ever testing it? Nuclear tests have become impossible in the world without getting caught. The CTBTO stations are located even on remote islands like Tristan da Cunha, British Overseas Territory, South Atlantic. There are satellites, plus the global seismic observation network, which had already precisely located the pipeline explosion in the Baltic Sea. But nothing is impossible.

The world needs to understand if Benji does what he says he is going to do, this will be a nuclear conflict. It will not be contained, so Benji must be constrained.
I hope that there are rational forces on such issues who realistically assess the situation and have sufficient influence on Israel's government (e.g. U.S.). I mentioned before, the U.S. forced Israel to stop in Lebanon in 1982.

Perhaps you aren't understanding Benji. He says Hamas are all dead. He means this literally. Does he have a list of all their names? All of them? I doubt that. No he has to kill everyone in Gaza, he has to be sure to get every Hamas. He has sworn it. That is what he is going to attempt.
All or majority of them is impossible. But Israel has to act decisively to this horror. Weakness will provoke further massacres and the loss of citizens' trust in the state, its army. That's how I see his statement about ALL Hamas fighters.

Realistically, he will drive them out of Gaza, just as Israel forced the PLO out of Lebanon in 1978-1982. The operation against Lebanon was also triggered by the worst terrorist attack at the time against motorists on the coastal highway between Tel Aviv and Haifa. It would be desirable if the supply of weapons to Hamas and the financing could be stopped through international pressure. It is unacceptable that Hamas receives billions of dollars from Qatar. Strangled Hamas financially would be the best solution. But that is totally unrealistic. That is why Israel is forced to act itself, whether it is right or wrong. I stand by my opinion: financing of Gaza by the West, without very strict tracking of the money, without tough conditions for every dollar, strengthend Hamas for a decade. This has to end immediately. Instead: EU triples its financial aid to Gaza this week. Benji sees it too.

When Bush was faced with this he vowed to hold the planners responsible and degrade their ability so they were no longer a threat. He didn't vow to kill everyone.
Why doesn't anyone else feel responsible for containing Hamas and reducing the threats on Israel?

One response is justifiable, the other is the crime against humanity.
I agree, but only time will tell.
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Message 2127032 - Posted: 16 Oct 2023, 21:49:41 UTC - in response to Message 2126974.  

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Message 2127033 - Posted: 16 Oct 2023, 22:10:42 UTC - in response to Message 2127030.  

A remark: I can understand Gary's rational arguments. Having to consider such possibilities creates an icy chill.
I remember that certain isotopes in enriched nuclear materials differ depending on where it was made. The enriched materials as well as bombs made from them leave their unique fingerprint. Kim doesn't want his fingerprint on Iran's bomb.
Does the world have some of Kim's material to fingerprint? Is his process stable enough that different batches are that similar?

Would Iran use its own bomb without ever testing it?
The USA did. The test was of a plutonium warhead, the first use was the untested uranium warhead. Of course Iran could just ship its test item to Kim.

I hope that there are rational forces on such issues who realistically assess the situation and have sufficient influence on Israel's government (e.g. U.S.). I mentioned before, the U.S. forced Israel to stop in Lebanon in 1982.
I fear Pootin through his agent Trump has weakened the USA too much for it to stop dictator Benji.

Realistically, he will drive them out of Gaza, just as Israel forced the PLO out of Lebanon in 1978-1982
Their big mistake as the PLO leadership was reasonable. They lacked the ability to exert effective control over the extremists present in all societies.
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Message 2127035 - Posted: 16 Oct 2023, 22:31:43 UTC - in response to Message 2126942.  
Last modified: 16 Oct 2023, 22:37:00 UTC

There are no winners. People die.

Is there any alternative?

Meanwhile, the self appointed leader of Gaza, whilst 'calling the shots', enjoys his luxury far far away in another world in Qatar...
I recently saw a scene from a well-known German TV series that shows the harsh interwar period between WW I and WW II in Berlin starting in 1929. The everyday street terror of communists and rightwing extremists, both of whom did everything to destroy the First German Republic in order to enforce a communist autocracy resp. to rebuild the German Empire. Both sides, communists and monarchists (including nazis), used each other's atrocities as motivation for further atrocities, while the power of responsible liberals in government, police, judiciary, press, dwindled week after week. In this specific scene, a criminal investigator went into a dark, dirty Berlin backyard. Cockfights were held there. The fighting cocks fought until death of their opponents. The excited crowd of lower class, brutal, dehumanized spectators shouted, cheered on their favorite. Bookmakers took bets. Banknotes were passed around from everywhere.

Who is responsible for the atrocities here? The most powerful or the most brutal fighting cock? Or the agitators, the spectators standing enthusiastically at the fences?

I wish the world community would finally act together against all the agitators, terror sponsors, financiers of evil, who have no qualms about plunging the world into a major war.
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Message 2127042 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 0:23:18 UTC

Is this expansion to cement Benji at home? Does he want a two front war?
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231016-%F0%9F%94%B4live-israel-strikes-hezbollah-terrorist-targets-in-lebanon-says-army
12:46: Israel strikes Hezbollah 'terrorist' targets in Lebanon, says army
Israel launched strikes overnight on Hezbollah "terrorist" targets in Lebanon, a statement from the Israeli army said early Tuesday morning.
"The Israeli army is striking military targets of the terrorist organisation Hezbollah on Lebanese territory," the statement said.
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Message 2127043 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 0:27:30 UTC - in response to Message 2127033.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2023, 0:30:45 UTC

I remember that certain isotopes in enriched nuclear materials differ depending on where it was made. The enriched materials as well as bombs made from them leave their unique fingerprint. Kim doesn't want his fingerprint on Iran's bomb.
Does the world have some of Kim's material to fingerprint? Is his process stable enough that different batches are that similar?
The US Air Force put much effort into having one of these jets nearby whenever there's an upcoming nuclear test or any nuclear incident happened anywhere:
[...] WC-135W Constant Phoenix atmospheric-collection aircraft [...] collecting particulate debris and gaseous effluents from accessible regions of the atmosphere [...] allows [...] to detect radioactive debris "clouds" in real time. [...] equipped with external flow-through devices to collect particulates on filter paper and a compressor system for whole air samples collected in high-pressure holding spheres. [...] crew is minimized [...] to reduce radiation exposure to mission-essential personnel only. [...]
I'd also guess that among the IAEA's personnel doing routine inspections of nuclear facilities in all IAEA member states, some may also collect samples for their national intelligence services. Results are supposedly top secret. When I'm remembering it correctly; it's not only about trace isotopes within the fissile material, but also specific trace isotopes and their percentage in nuclear fission products. But I'm no physicist. I don't know if they have Kim's fingerprint.

Realistically, he will drive them out of Gaza, just as Israel forced the PLO out of Lebanon in 1978-1982
Their big mistake as the PLO leadership was reasonable. They lacked the ability to exert effective control over the extremists present in all societies.
Well, I'm not convinced. Throughout his life, PLO's longtime leader Yasser Arafat, a favourite in the Communist bloc back then, was unable to decide whether he is a fanatic terrorist, following his ideology or a political leader, capable of compromise. Sitting between these two chairs, he bears much responsibility for the failure of the Oslo peace process in the year 2000. Never before, never afterwards they were so close to a solution. Compromises made by both sides back then are unthinkable today.
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Message 2127046 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 5:09:05 UTC - in response to Message 2127043.  

Realistically, he will drive them out of Gaza, just as Israel forced the PLO out of Lebanon in 1978-1982
Their big mistake as the PLO leadership was reasonable. They lacked the ability to exert effective control over the extremists present in all societies.
Well, I'm not convinced. Throughout his life, PLO's longtime leader Yasser Arafat, a favourite in the Communist bloc back then, was unable to decide whether he is a fanatic terrorist, following his ideology or a political leader, capable of compromise. Sitting between these two chairs, he bears much responsibility for the failure of the Oslo peace process in the year 2000. Never before, never afterwards they were so close to a solution. Compromises made by both sides back then are unthinkable today.

I suspect Mr. Arafat's flip flop nature was because he lacked effective control over the extremist elements, so he had to play a game of pandering to each faction to remain breathing.

Israel instead of injecting FUD into the PLO should have been injecting stability. If they had I suspect some reasonably solid peace would exist with a large part of the world.

But, if Israel ejects Hamas, and expects a different result than ejecting the PLO, that is insanity. How many more times will they do it making ever more violent and dangerous people?
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Message 2127054 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 8:45:18 UTC - in response to Message 2127042.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2023, 8:56:35 UTC

Is this expansion to cement Benji at home? Does he want a two front war?
https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231016-%F0%9F%94%B4live-israel-strikes-hezbollah-terrorist-targets-in-lebanon-says-army
12:46: Israel strikes Hezbollah 'terrorist' targets in Lebanon, says army
Israel launched strikes overnight on Hezbollah "terrorist" targets in Lebanon, a statement from the Israeli army said early Tuesday morning.
"The Israeli army is striking military targets of the terrorist organisation Hezbollah on Lebanese territory," the statement said.
Sorry, you may disagree, but these fine Hezbollah people are eager to enter the conflict. They are shelling Israel's military posts with a few artillery shells. They simply fire an anti-tank missile at an Israeli position. They call it a warning signal to Israel. Sorry, but these people have a strange understanding of what a warning is. In short, the finger is on the trigger, on both sides. Hezbollah and Hamas think it's right to shoot first. I despise this mentality.

Btw. what is this UNIFIL mission on the Israeli-Lebanon border doing? Observing and keeping the peace? This entire incapacitated UN missions there are pointless. If Hezbollah or Iran want war, there will be war. If they fear their losses will be far too high, then they will postpone war.

[EDIT:] That's what Israel is "explaining" Hezbollah. It's the 'diplomacy' of Middle East.... The only reliable channel that still delivers messages effectively. Disgusting, absurd for us, a reality there for decades.
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Message 2127058 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 11:40:22 UTC - in response to Message 2127046.  
Last modified: 17 Oct 2023, 11:45:17 UTC

Israel instead of injecting FUD into the PLO should have been injecting stability.
I agree, but I also understand Israels position then, which wasn't different to e.g. the West German one in the 1970s.

If they had I suspect some reasonably solid peace would exist with a large part of the world.
I do not believe that, knowing Syria's or e.g. Egypt's position back then. But yes, mutual understanding would have been easier to achieve with a PLO of the past (atrocities back then were more selective, more targeted with fewer victims). But let us not forget the murdered Israeli Olympic athletes in Munich 1972, the many hijacked passenger planes, used to free imprisoned terrorists. When the West gave in, there were more hijackings; it paid off. There is no point in negotiating with terrorists. No one in the West wanted to negotiate with PLO, representing interests of terror fanatics. When it was done later, see PLO's autonomous authority in the West Bank, also in Gaza before, the results are sobering to this day. What's the point negotiating peace with PLO if they ever only had minor influence over Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah... or Iran? It means that PLO itself is not respected to represent Palestina's interests by large sections of Palestinians and Islamic powers abroad.

[EDIT:]
But, if Israel ejects Hamas, and expects a different result than ejecting the PLO, that is insanity. How many more times will they do it making ever more violent and dangerous people?
I can see the truth and tragedy in it.
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Message 2127059 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 12:19:29 UTC

What way out of the ongoing tragedy?

What options are there?


All in a very deadly political world,
Martin
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Message 2127062 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 12:41:38 UTC
Last modified: 17 Oct 2023, 12:43:38 UTC

And this just in, only minutes ago, but that the UN security council rejects Russia's call for what I think should be a ceasefire.

But is it not so that Russia is having a veto power in the security council for being one of the winners out of Second World War?

Has this been walked away from, in order to prevent a possible nuclear confrontation which could ensue or just happen?

Just fine words, but such a thing could be still Armageddon, for only sitting here otherwise.
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Message 2127064 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 12:50:07 UTC - in response to Message 2127059.  

What way out of the ongoing tragedy?

What options are there?


De-radicalization of both sides... Palestinians need to stop supporting Hamas, Hezbollah or any other radical Islamist/terrorist group that uses violence especially against civilians for political ends.
Israelis need to kick Benji and the other radical right-wingers out of leadership, and replace them with a more moderate government that is willing to seriously move forward towards Palestinian self-government and stability and prosperity, ending practices such as forced resettlement and destroying innocent peoples' homes which just perpetuates further generations of terrorists.

Right now, good luck with all that sadly.
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Message 2127073 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 14:52:33 UTC - in response to Message 2127062.  

But is it not so that Russia is having a veto power in the security council for being one of the winners out of Second World War?
Not Russia! The Soviet Union was granted veto power when the UN was founded. They were not only the winners, but also among the perpetrators igniting WW2. In a fit of mental derangement, the United Nations decided after 1991 to recognize Russia as the only successor to the USSR transfering veto powers to them. Belarus? Ukraine? But off topic here.
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Message 2127074 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 14:58:39 UTC
Last modified: 17 Oct 2023, 15:00:04 UTC

To complete Mr. Kevvy's list: In Iran, the religious fanaticism that aims to destroy Israel must stop.
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Message 2127079 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 17:43:45 UTC

I suspect that the Palestinians themselves have no say about the murderously coercive power that Hamas and Hezbollah wield over them. And those in the echo box of impoverished indoctrination that is called Gaza will have no idea of the wider politics, or even of the wider world...

How do we moderate or possibly undo the cult of Iran?...


There is an awful lot of trauma to undo...

All in our deadly world of politics...
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Message 2127081 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 18:40:06 UTC

Predictably, Israel's response to atrocities is that its government has given an ultimatum to people that have next to nothing to clear out and lose the little they have, so that thousands of their homes can be flattened with carpet bombing...


Sometimes I hate being correct... hospitals in this case.

At least 500 people have been killed in a bombing of a hospital in Gaza City, the Palestinian Health Ministry has claimed.


Apparently they were sheltering there.
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Message 2127084 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 19:58:05 UTC

Crooked Benji and his terrorist mob are losing support hand over fist with Israelis over their actions and inactions.

While all eyes are on the bigger war with Gaza, small confrontations are erupting all over Israel.

.........Support for Netanyahu has crashed. A poll by Maariv, taken after this war began, found that Benny Gantz's National Unity party leads Netanyahu's Likud by 22 seats. Over the first week of the war, Gantz's party gained 12 seats while the Likud lost nine.

The Israeli media reported that on management of the war so far, Netanyahu scored a 4.2 out of 10 in the poll. He was awarded only one point from 42 per cent of respondents. Only 29 per cent of people said that Netanyahu was still qualified to be prime minister, with 48 per cent preferring Gantz.

Only 20 per cent of respondents said they would still want Netanyahu to be prime minister when the war ends.

One of Israel's most respected political analysts, Barak Ravid, said Netanyahu's political standing is the worst it's ever been.
Hopefully a better government will see the light and change its way towards peace.
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Message 2127086 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 20:36:36 UTC - in response to Message 2127081.  

Sometimes I hate being correct... hospitals in this case.
Who is responsible? This question is difficult to answer in every war, often only later, sometimes not at all. Truth dies first in war. Let's hope that in the future journalists will be able to report from Gaza regularly and safely (from bombs and from threats of a terrorist government). As long as that is not possible, all we have is real-time journalism, sometimes from unverified or questionable sources that is updated or supplemented many times. But without this, we wouldn't know anything. That's not good either.
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Message 2127092 - Posted: 17 Oct 2023, 21:03:43 UTC

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Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?


 
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