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Message 2101020 - Posted: 8 Jun 2022, 22:52:31 UTC - in response to Message 2100961.  

Got your charger yet?


The sun charges me! fotoSYNtheSIZE, baby!!!
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 2101028 - Posted: 8 Jun 2022, 23:38:19 UTC - in response to Message 2101020.  

Sarge is an LGM
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Message 2101032 - Posted: 9 Jun 2022, 0:23:58 UTC

And before Dull comments on gas price being too high, spare a thought for those outside the U.S.
US gas prices hit fresh high of nearly $5 a gallon as UK sees record equivalent to $8.60
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Message 2101102 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 14:47:06 UTC - in response to Message 2101032.  

Since yesterdays increase to 183.16 per liter (petrol) comes to £95.24 (based on the info that follows).
Since I am now officially retired, have 3 options.
1: OAP bus pass & Senior Citizen's railcard (job done if no personal transport required)
2: Purchase a car either petrol or diesel.
3: Purchase an EV.

So got the time on my hand to do some research (needed because of 45 years in the transport industry, have many questions/concerns regarding EV's).
Fuel efficiency/Distance/Cost.
Could only find comparable info up to 2019 (so far).
Top 10 cars for efficiency
So based on the No 1, a full tank will cost £95.24 at today's prices (possibly more), giving a total travel on 1 tank of fuel of 1,112.69 miles.
While travelling that distance, any heating & other electrics will be provided by the battery/alternator, so not bad.

Now for EV's.
How long does it cost to charge an electric car UK?
Most drivers will charge their electric car overnight, waking up to a full battery every morning. Average domestic electricity rate in the whole of the UK is about 28p per kWh**. Fully charging a 60kWh electric car will cost around £15 (depending on where you live) and give you about 200 miles of range.
So for the same distance traveled as the example above, the cost will be £83.45.
Not bad, a saving of £11.79, BUT...
An EV in cold weather will take longer to charge.
An EV in cold weather will seriously impact range due to all the electrics being used.
Current cost of Electricity.
Time.

A 200 mile trip in a car will take approx 3.75/4 hours (includes a pit stop to refuel it's passengers).
I suppose 1 can charge up their EV wile on a pitstop (if they don't have to queue at the charging points).
That saving doesn't look so healthy now does it?
Also, bear in mind that commercial rates are higher than domestic rates.
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Message 2101104 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 15:21:41 UTC - in response to Message 2101102.  
Last modified: 10 Jun 2022, 15:39:02 UTC

As always, take your pick of the numbers...

For a good selection of EVs, we have (ev-database.org - Energy consumption of full electric vehicles) a range of 0.1kWh/km to 0.3kWh/km... For example, a heavyweight Tesla Model 3 comes in at 0.15kWh/km.

So... Comparing that to a typical 50mpg fossils powered vehicle, we have 50 * 1.6 (km) / 4.5 (l) = 17.8 km/l = 0.056 l/km.

Hence for 100km at current UK prices we have:

    For an EV: 100 * 0.15 * 28p = £4.20

    For fossils: 100 * 0.056 * 200p = £11.20



Looking at the full list of EVs, there's quite a few around the 0.18kWh/km so let's assume old tech 0.20kWh/km, to give:


    Middle EV: 100 * 0.20 * 28p = £5.60



Note also that 28p is worst case domestic tariff. If you do have an EV, multiple "smartmetered" suppliers offer overnight charging over a 4hour period at 5p / kWh.

(And at the 5p/kWh price, it then becomes worthwhile to use your EV battery as a power bank for your house for when you're not using it for driving. Even at 50% efficiency, that still equates to 10p/kWh for powering your home.)



Have I gone wrong with those numbers?

Amazin' how battery tech has so rapidly improved...


Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 2101105 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 15:34:13 UTC - in response to Message 2101104.  

Have I gone wrong with those numbers?
YES, & glaringly as well.
Switch back between my post & yours & you should see why.
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Message 2101106 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 15:47:53 UTC - in response to Message 2101105.  
Last modified: 10 Jun 2022, 15:48:44 UTC

Ok... So if you want all that for 200 miles, then just multiply up by 2 * 1.6 = 3.2 to give:


Hence for 100km 200miles at current UK prices we have:

    For an EV: 100 * 0.15 * 28p * 3.2 = £4.20 £13.44

    For fossils: 100 * 0.056 * 200p * 3.2 = £11.20 £35.84



Looking at the full list of EVs, there's quite a few around the 0.18kWh/km so let's assume old tech 0.20kWh/km, to give:


    Middle EV: 100 * 0.20 * 28p * 3.2 = £5.60 £17.92




That better?

Keep searchin',
Martin


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Message 2101113 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 16:16:33 UTC - in response to Message 2101106.  

NO :-)
1: you compared Apples to Oranges.
1 km DOES not equal 1 mile. The example used a Ford Focus with a fuel efficiency of 52 liters for 1,112.69 miles (1,790.70098 km).
You used an example of practically half that. Oops.
2: My post was research for MY options but offered it for comparison for others doing research.
3: An overnight full charge, even though nice, will not get me to see family members spread throughout this country on just the 1 charge.
For example:
Newcastle
Nottingham
Derby
Welwyn Garden
London
Canvey Island
Bournemouth

3 of those will not do the trip on 1 full charge.
Then there is the Autumn/Winter months when from all indications seen to date seriously impact range NO matter how much battery technology has improved.
Then there is the higher capacity batteries that will only charge 80% of the battery due to the heat element. Oops.
Then there is the difference between domestic rate & commercial rate which would be required to complete those trips.
Then there is the added question of home charging points.
If none at any of the home destinations, commercial rates again come into play thereby throwing yours number in the bin. :-)
Don;t get me wrong, not against EV's. Have not only ridden in one but also driven one - nice.
Until they greatly improve the range & number of charging points throughout the country, they are just a niche market for the rich atm.
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Message 2101117 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 16:42:20 UTC - in response to Message 2101113.  

Then there is the higher capacity batteries that will only charge 80% of the battery due to the heat element. Oops.

It's not that the batteries only charge to 80%. It is that at 80% fast charging stops, because of the heat problem, in a correctly designed charger.

The charging cycle is constant current up to 80%, battery voltage about 4V/cell, and constant Voltage after that, which is a lot like lead-acid batteries where the charging current reduces to virtually zero when near full charge.
It's quite probably that the commercial charging points don't do the last 20% because it takes so long, and only charging to 80% means more money can be extracted from more customers.
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Message 2101118 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 16:43:14 UTC - in response to Message 2101113.  
Last modified: 10 Jun 2022, 16:52:47 UTC

... 1 km DOES not equal 1 mile. The example used a Ford Focus with a fuel efficiency of 52 liters for 1,112.69 miles (1,790.70098 km)...

Hence the 2 * 1.6 = 3.2 conversion factor for 100km -> 200miles. (1km = 1.6miles)

OK, so for Ford Focus, taking the first example from "Ford Focus fuel consumption, miles per gallon or litres/ km" gives Ford Focus 1.4 l: "Car fuel with highway drive: 5.4 litres/100 km (43,34 miles per gallon)"

= 0.054 l/km.

I've assumed 0.056 l/km so for that example, the fossils calculation now reads:

    For fossils: 100 * 0.056 0.054 * 200p * 3.2 = £11.20 £35.84 £34.56 for 200miles




For the Ford Focus, see also the contrasts between:

ford.com - FORD FOCUS SPECIFICATIONS

Parkers - Ford Focus running costs and reliability

Fuelly - https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/focus

There's quite a variation across those listed numbers!

Meanwhile, you can now go all-electric with the Ford Focus ;-)


For your Grand Tour, can you recharge the car aswel as yourself at your various stops?


Keep seachin',
Martin

ps: Note that I'm assuming (UK) Imperial gallons rather than US gallons... 1 Imperial gallon = 1.2 * US gallons.


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Message 2101122 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 17:09:42 UTC - in response to Message 2101102.  

Since yesterdays increase to 183.16 per liter (petrol) comes to £95.24 (based on the info that follows).
Since I am now officially retired, have 3 options.
1: OAP bus pass & Senior Citizen's railcard (job done if no personal transport required)
2: Purchase a car either petrol or diesel.
3: Purchase an EV....
Have you thought about something like a Corolla Hybrid?
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Message 2101126 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 17:54:55 UTC - in response to Message 2101118.  

What grand tour?
I stated the following:
Officially retired.
Family spread throughout the country.
DO you visit your family members all in one hit?
As for mileage.
That 1,112.69 miles was for a full of tank of fuel which for the Ford Focus is 52 liters,, 11.5555 Imperial gallons.
That equates to 96.291 mpg.
A 52 liter tank & one tankful of fuel - NICE.
Yeah, I know hard to believe. However, the numbers don't lie (unless Car News were doing a late April Fools joke),
If that efficient, then EV's have a fair way to go.
@Wiggo. Thanks much better price range & no electric costs domestic or commercial.
Traveled back & forth to Cambridge in a Toyota for a few years, nice car so will look into that further. :-)
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Message 2101128 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 18:21:46 UTC - in response to Message 2101126.  

... That equates to 96.291 mpg...

Sorry, but I can't believe that is a realistic figure...

... Unless that is for a Focus motorbike or some sort of re-imagined Robin Reliant?

Or is that for zero load at 25mph?...


Keep searchin'!
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Message 2101130 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 18:55:25 UTC - in response to Message 2101128.  

Don't know of any motorbike capable of having an 11.55 gallon tank. :-)
Yeah, I find that hard to believe as well, but...
10 most popular cars by maximum distance travelled on one tankful.
# Model Distance (miles) Tank Size (L) Cost to Fill
1 Ford Focus 1,112.69 52 £66.75
2 VW Golf 1,046.12 55 £70.40
3 Audi A3 1,046.12 55 £70.40
4 BMW 3 Series 1,014.42 60 £76.80
5 Vauxhall Astra 874.94 48 £61.44
6 Renault Clio 855.92 45 £57.60
7 Ford Fiesta 821.05 42 £53.76
8 VW Polo 803.08 40 £51.20
9 MINI 639.30 44 £56.32
10 Vauxhall Corsa 606.28 45 £57.60

...there is a possible answer. :-)
At a guess, I think you may be thinking the same as me.
It does beg a very important question that has to be really addressed where climate change is concerned: What is real & what is B/S.
That question is also made much harder when the "experts" themselves B/S.
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Message 2101131 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 19:02:36 UTC - in response to Message 2101130.  
Last modified: 10 Jun 2022, 19:03:08 UTC

I've worked out that fantastic 1000 miles result!


... That's for driving down from up high in Scotland down south to the sea at Lands End?

Or is it for on a rolling road in a test garage?...


Keep searchin'!
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Message 2101135 - Posted: 10 Jun 2022, 21:00:12 UTC - in response to Message 2101131.  

Tut tut. :-)
The study used the average petrol price of £1.28 per litre as recorded by RAC Fuel Watch for April and calculated the maximum distance using the official fuel tank capacity and maximum combined miles per gallon figures from the car maker.
What I would like to know is: What is a maximum combined mpg & how is it arrived at?
However, based on this:
Based on the number of miles covered and the cost of filling the tank, the Focus costs 7.1p per mile to run, ahead of the VW Polo (7.6p) and Ford Fiesta (7.8p).
I'm safely assuming that a test range of mileage was done & then pro-rata by total fuel capacity.
Still, I have never heard of any car with the fuel consumption of a motorbike (1st ever motorbike was a Honda C90 (6 pint tank) giving over 100 mpg)..
So again, what is real & what is false?
Earlier on in this thread, I did state that EV versus Fossil Fuel is a contentious debate.
Haven't seen anything to date to disprove that statement.
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Message 2101180 - Posted: 11 Jun 2022, 18:13:27 UTC - in response to Message 2101028.  

Sarge is an LGM


S@H found me long ago. I was hiding under your noses all this time.
I am also the last glacial maximum.
Leg power over petrol!
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 2101181 - Posted: 11 Jun 2022, 18:15:02 UTC - in response to Message 2101032.  

And before Dull comments on gas price being too high, spare a thought for those outside the U.S.
US gas prices hit fresh high of nearly $5 a gallon as UK sees record equivalent to $8.60


We can't think outside our own country. That's how we're conditioned. So that we can then blame the US leaders we don't like.
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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Message 2101183 - Posted: 11 Jun 2022, 18:56:40 UTC - in response to Message 2100952.  
Last modified: 11 Jun 2022, 18:58:26 UTC

Such a Special One

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2022/06/07/democrat-senator-says-gas-prices-dont-matter-to-her-as-millions-impacted-by-record-high-prices/


Hey, all that doesn't matter to her is the price of gasoline... she is not so special. For me you can also add: insurance, licensing, registration, depreciation, repossession, maintenance labour, breakdown tows, unrepairable and unnecessary onboard electronics, parking, traffic jams, most road closures, carjackings, speed limits, unnecessary stop signs, unnecessary red lights on some three-ways, and a bunch else. I think Sarge may be in agreement with this list as well.
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Message 2101216 - Posted: 12 Jun 2022, 18:27:55 UTC - in response to Message 2101183.  

Hey, all that doesn't matter to her is the price of gasoline... she is not so special. For me you can also add: insurance, licensing, registration, depreciation, repossession, maintenance labour, breakdown tows, unrepairable and unnecessary onboard electronics, parking, traffic jams, most road closures, carjackings, speed limits, unnecessary stop signs, unnecessary red lights on some three-ways, and a bunch else. I think Sarge may be in agreement with this list as well.


As a user of leg power and public transportation, I agree with a lot of this list. I do have to wonder what has happened to gas use in the US since the mid-90s, as well as accidents/mortality since then.
Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.
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