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Never mind life on Mars
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rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22160 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Could there be life on, or more accurately in the clouds above, Venus: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54133538 Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
What is the temp there ? |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
What is the temp there ? Just above the clouds, a very pleasant 'shirt sleeves' environment. Small shame about no solid ground there unless you can walk on air. There are also the small spoilers of sulfuric acid and radiation to tolerate... All very tantalising for what has been found! Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
If life can exist in Venus' highly acidic atmosphere, it shows that life is capable of finding a way to adapt and thrive under a very wide range of conditions. Can anyone show that substantial amounts phosphine gas can arise naturally, and in the absence of life? Apparently not, so far at least. It seems that even the very nearest planet to Earth is inhabited, albeit probably with microscopic forms of life that float continuously in Venus' atmosphere. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
Venus' upper atmosphere is extremely dry, which would indicate a necessary adaptation in that respect, in any life found there. Water would not exist in quantities needed for life as we know it. This argues against the possibility of microbes carried by space probes from Earth contaminating Venus' atmosphere, which has been suggested, elsewhere. Phosphine is highly perishable, so whatever is making it must be flourishing, and replenishing it all the time. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
The simplest explanation is an error in their spectroscopy. I think they were looking at the signature caused by sulphuric acid. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20147 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
The simplest explanation is an error in their spectroscopy. I think they were looking at the signature caused by sulphuric acid. That would be 'very surprising' for that to have been missed in all the reviews... Have you any data for that conjecture? Note that the paper has been a number of years in the making including multiple observations to confirm their results... Extraordinary claims and all that?... What data is there for or against? All good science! Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19013 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
The simplest explanation is an error in their spectroscopy. I think they were looking at the signature caused by sulphuric acid. https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/news/life-on-venus-evidence-microbial-phosphine/ The astronomers used the James Clerk Maxwell Telescope (JCMT) in Hawaii to detect phosphine around Venus, then turned to the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array (ALMA) in Chile for follow-up observations. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
The ESA/JAXA Mercury probe, BepiColombo, will pass near Venus on October 15th, 2020, less than a month from now, and again on August 10th, 2021. It carries instruments that cover the spectral wavelength of phosphine. In both instances, they will look for this gas in Venus' atmosphere. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
The simplest explanation is an error in their spectroscopy. I think they were looking at the signature caused by sulphuric acid. This question was covered in the seminal paper: 'Phosphine gas in the cloud decks of Venus', by J. Greaves, etal. (Nature Astronomy). They noted the respective wavelengths, carefully examined the issue of the spectral line of phosphine -- PH4, being contaminated by that of sulphuric acid--SO2, and found that, at most, only a small amount of the absorption line attributed to phosphine could be caused by sulphuric acid. To put this matter in perspective, the two spectral lines in question are approximately 535 MegaHertz apart. No other potentially contaminating spectral lines were found. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
An unlikely observation and claim begs for an alternate explanation. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
I agree. An alternate explanation is just what the astronomers involved in this discover tried to find, as their paper makes clear. Having found no other reasonable explanation for the presence of the phosphine, they urged other scientists to suggest one. They already admit that some sort of non-biological process could be responsible for the supposed signs of life in Venus' atmosphere. It appears that all of those alternate explanations suggested so far have been speculative and unsubstantiated by evidence, or are unworkable, on their face. The more time that passes without a cogent alternate explanation, the more likely the 'life on Venus' hypothesis appears. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
At what temperature would the putative life have to tolerate ? Should be no speculation here. |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11360 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Initially the temperature of the fluid released from hydrothermal vents is extreme - it can reach over 400°C. But despite the scalding heat, the environment around the vents is habitable for a range of animals. That's here on earth. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1383 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
At what temperature would the putative life have to tolerate ? Should be no speculation here. In the cloud decks in Venus' atmosphere, where the phosphine gas was found, about 50 kilometers altitude, the temperature should be about 300 Kelvins ( 27 degrees C., 80 degrees F. ) So, quite tolerable for life, it would seem. |
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