Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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 Gary Charpentier     Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 
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Nope... Worse than that...That's on the individual A&P. If you don't know how to grind hardened steel without overheating it so it loses temper that isn't on Boeing or the FAA. And if you are an airline executive hiring A&P's who don't know basic materials science that is on you; you better spring for new parts then. Or does everything in life have to be idiot proof? |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 
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Or does everything in life have to be idiot proof? Very much yes. ... At least so for anything life critical. That is why we have evolved the tangle of Regulation and regulations that we have. Sweep all that away and back to the deadly old Wild West we go... Special note: For the people doing the job of adding a new hardened coating, their focus is upon only what they are being paid for to repair the coating. They will have no cares for anything else, let alone going to any extra expense to protect the underlying structure. ... Unless protecting that structure is part of the pricing and is REQUIRED tested for... Otherwise, not tested for: Who is to know...? Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Scrooge McDuck  Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 2117 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 
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Positive news: High five: Fifth 777-9 takes flight A fifth 777-9 took off from Paine Field in Everett, Wash., on August 5 at 11:03 a.m. PDT, a sign of progress in the journey of Boeing’s new widebody airplane to certification and eventual entry into commercial service.Boeing 777-9 Advances to Next FAA Certification Phase The Boeing 777-9 [...] has achieved a significant milestone in its long-delayed journey toward certification. The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has approved Boeing to advance to the next phase of the 777-9 certification process, marking a critical step forward for the largest twin-engine jetliner currently in production. |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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Special note: For the people doing the job of adding a new hardened coating, their focus is upon only what they are being paid for to repair the coating. They will have no cares for anything else, let alone going to any extra expense to protect the underlying structure. ... Unless protecting that structure is part of the pricing and is REQUIRED tested for...It was the people tasked with removing the corrosion, the ones who need to know basic materials science, as should anyone who is an A&P. Just like the guy who makes subs to see the Titanic. Idiots hold themselves out to be experts. How to protect from liars? (think about politics) |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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... It was the people tasked with removing the corrosion, the ones who need to know basic materials science... Yes. Their task is regarding the corrosion. As far as their pay grade is concerned, that is a world away from considering material or structural properties like "hardening" treatments... Or (inadvertently) undoing such treatments... Which is where the Regulations come into play to head off such 'inadvertent' 'mistakes'... Note that this problem is an identified problem covered by a voluntarily followed unenforced Air Directive... Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22958 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380
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When new these Pins have a heat treated core to give then the required structural properties, they are then "chrome" plated to give a very hard wearing skin. In service the plating is designed to wear very slowly, and after years of operation, with regular correct lubrication they can be re-worked by machining off the plating and "re-profiling" the pin to the correct shape, albeit slightly undersize and finally building up the pin to the correct dimensions by applying a slightly thicker plating. There are two ways of removing the plating and re-profiling the pin, both involve turning in a lathe, one using a very hard tool, the other by grinding. Both have advantages and disadvantages - using the very hard tool works well, but the tooling and operation are more expensive, but there is less heat generated, grinding can be faster but it is harder to control the localised heat generation. From other incidents with pins of this type it would appear that the normal process is to grind off the plating and do the re-profiling at the same time. The final plating being done using the same process. Now, there's a third way of doing this - metal spraying. remove the worn out chrome by the process of your choice, but to a smaller diameter. Heat it up and spray it with a machinable metal sinter, then machine it down to the correct size. This technique is used when recovering very large parts, but great care has to be taken during the heating prior to the spraying stage, you have to get the surface hot enough for the spray to stay in place, but not hot enough to destroy the heat treatment.... Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
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Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 2117 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54
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In the age of industrial mass production, how is the complex machining, that is lathing, grinding, hardening, and surface coating of individual worn parts cheaper than ordering a spare part via FedEx from a (Boeing-certified) mass manufacturer? |
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rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22958 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380
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Buying new only works if the spare is readily available at a reasonable cost. Otherwise there can be some quite considerable savings in re-manufacturing parts like these pins - you don't have to buy the material, do the initial machining, heat treatment, plus of course all the aerospace QC on the new material, tooling etc. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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... It was the people tasked with removing the corrosion, the ones who need to know basic materials science... Apparently you are not aware of their pay grade. "It takes 21 to 24 months of full-time study at most aircraft mechanic schools to obtain your A&P license" What, did you think an A&P was on par with a grease monkey at the local petrol station? Not to say there aren't places that just teach the test and produce certified incompetence, but that is on the airline for hiring them. |
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Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 2117 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54
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How to remove a stranded Boeing from the only runway of a small island: (time-lapse video) --> Westjet B737-800, Sint Maarten, Sep 7th 2025, main gear collapse on landing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjm7TqJCN8c |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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... It was the people tasked with removing the corrosion, the ones who need to know basic materials science... Does that training/schooling include the details of materials hardening, the pitfalls with hardening, and also the techniques to overcome management 'costs economies'?... This particular failure has happened at least FOUR times now. All completely potentiality deadly. So far, no one has died... So far... As with the multiple prior failures with MCAS on the Boeing 737, do we need people to die before very obvious fixes are enforced? Note that the Air Directive alone isn't working... Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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the techniques to overcome management 'costs economies'?...who pays the rent when the order comes down? |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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the techniques to overcome management 'costs economies'?...who pays the rent when the order comes down? ... And that is 'ok' to gamble people's lives for profit?... Fly safe with that?! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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There are laws against blackmail, but it doesn't stop it from being profitable.the techniques to overcome management 'costs economies'?...who pays the rent when the order comes down? |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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... And that is 'ok' to gamble people's lives for profit?...There are laws against blackmail, but it doesn't stop it from being profitable. Well... To my mind and values, I consider this to be very much not "ok"... However... How can the accountants and Management not consider this latest result to be highly profitable? See: Boeing faces $3.1M fine for door plug blowout, hundreds of safety violations wrote: ... fines of $3.1 million against Boeing for various safety violations related to the January 2024 door plug blowout and what the FAA called "interference with safety officials' independence."... To me, that fine looks to be an insignificance. Fly safe with that?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31626 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32
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To me, that fine looks to be an insignificance.The fiduciary duty to the shareholder to maximize profit [period the end]. |
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Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 2117 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54
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The fiduciary duty to the shareholder to maximize profit [period the end].Of course, shareholders can still exploit this veteran, prize-winning racehorse for maximum profit. But at some point, it will simply collapse from old age. The strategic planners and engineering teams at Airbus now have both: the time and an overwhelming amount of money at their disposal to secretly develop a new series of aircraft. The Chinese aren't capable to at least develop (and also achieve FAA and EASA certification for) a single aisle aircraft which is competitive to A320 and B737? Are bets accepted on this? I believe that influential shareholders like e.g. BlackRock fully understand the situation of Boeing. Large profits can be expected in the future if they enable Boeing to regain its innovative strength and production efficiency. No one, not even Airbus, could assemble aircraft as quickly as Boeing did in the past with the B737 NG, before the Max disaster. |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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Ok... So a faulty oxygen supply and... First reported in 2023. And finally, much time later through to just recently... Airlines have argued for, and been allowed, 36 to 48 MONTHS to replace the faulty systems... Faulty 787 Oxygen Masks! Causes The FAA To Issue Airworthiness Directive For Over 100 {Boeing} Dreamliners! ... Lots of turgid detail, but in short... A low cost item is kicked down the aisle... Just hope you don't suffer a depressurization, or a door blow-out? Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21976 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20
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Meanwhile... What an expensive saga?... The {Boeing} KC-46 Pegasus (Includes Boeing's MCAS...) ... And still ongoing... Fly safe with that?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 2117 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54
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... Lots of turgid detail, but in short......or rather a manufacturing or just packing issue? ...because some of the oxygen masks could be faulty and might not work.... the oxygen supply tubing for the masks could be kinked. That doesn't sounds like a Boeing problem but just negligence of the supplier of these cheap, mass produced masks. |
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