The procedures are not new. Misidentification of a control happens to software systems too and kills just as surly. The lesson is to follow procedures that were written in blood.

... Except...

You might look at the European practice that allows inexperienced pilots to fly heavy iron. If they had been US pilot licenses one could not have been in the cockpit.

You might look at the European practice that allows inexperienced pilots to fly heavy iron. If they had been US pilot licenses one could not have been in the cockpit.

Can you please explain this statement in more detail? Never heard about this. I know... it's off-topic...

Long ago I read somewhere there's a difference between Europe and US, as that there are many commercial pilots in the US who earned their wings at Air Force, Navy, Air National Guard. They are said to be more experienced with events out of the ordinary text-book piloting.

On the other hand there are few former military pilots in Europe now, because our Air Forces were almost abolished after the end of the Cold War.

In the US a "new" airline pilot needs to have 1500 hours of experience before starting to do the "proper" training, in Europe it is much less. The trouble is that 1500 hours may be all in a little puddle skipper flopping around one's local airfield, without tuition or supervision, so bad habits may (will?) be developed unchecked. In Europe the hours requirement is much lower (500?), and does need some level of supervision/tuition, which reduces the possibility of bad habits developing. In a tense situation there is a danger that a low (airline) hours pilot will revert to those bad habits, which of course is reduced if those habits aren't there in the first place.
The above does not absolve those responsible for designing cockpit secondary control layouts from having "sensible" layouts such that it is more difficult to turn off flight-vital systems. I think this crash may have been averted if the "B-hydraulic" isolator was a guarded switch.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I think this crash may have been averted if the "B-hydraulic" isolator was a guarded switch.

Yes but when the 737 was originally designed were any such switches "certified." Would putting them on require a different type rating? What is the weight penalty, or how much fuel additional fuel burn over the life of the airframe?

Weight - just a fraction of an ounce, so additional fuel burn will be less than that due to the accumulation of dead insects on the undercarriage.....

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Weight - just a fraction of an ounce, so additional fuel burn will be less than that due to the accumulation of dead insects on the undercarriage.....

They can be retro fitted, and in the UK cost is about £5 when bought in bulk.

Weight - just a fraction of an ounce, so additional fuel burn will be less than that due to the accumulation of dead insects on the undercarriage.....

They can be retro fitted, and in the UK cost is about £5 when bought in bulk.

Decades old converted freighter. Eastern airline. Why to pay for non-necessary retrofits?

But Swiftair is not a small freight carrier (~40 planes) where you may suspect negligence; missing airline rules; inferior training captains, etc. Typical work hours during the night and early morning on many short distance routes within Europe to distribute parcels from the major express freight hubs in Cologne, Leipzig or Brussels to minor destinations, not served by the major express cargo airlines themselves (DHL, UPS, FedEx). The crew wasn't overworked (previous weeks flying hours); tired maybe.

Master caution alarm sounded. Autopilot disengaged. They simply canceled the alarm and tried repeatedly to reengage the autopilot without identifying the deactivated hydraulics. When this was unsuccessful they simply continued the approach manually until the plane crashed.

Airlines operated surely a thousand of these classic 737 over the last four decades all over the globe; typically without negligence and ignorance.

Somebody mentioned this here before. When young pilots, or the current generation in general, today learn to fly modern aircraft at commercial flight schools... later in their first airline job, they find themselves retrained for decades-old 737 or turbo props with non-glass cockpits; without ever having learned the proper practice or how to proper handle such oldies without everything computer controlled. The older pilot generations were capable to operate them with few incidents and accidents.

Airlines pay hundred million of dollars for jet aircraft because they represent a worthful investment; a craft which can be safely used daily for three or even four decades, if properly maintained. In between changes hands several times... converted to a freighter... That means it is no mistake to operate decades old airplanes with outdated cockpit designs; it's an economic necessity. Especially for low-valued freight or flight routes with high utility (flight time vs. earthbound travel) but low demand and price-sensitive customers (e.g. indigenious settlements in the Arctics, rural destinations in Africa, Asia, ...).

As Duck points out DC-3's with radial engines are still in revenue service.

More deadly deeds?...


"FAA: Boeing 787 Flaw Could Lead to MidAir Collision" - Is Anyone Listening? Qatar Says It’s NOT Fixed!


Note how radio problems were very much a factor in the overload/distractions that were part of what killed all on board the recent Vilnius Boeing 737 deadly crash...

Also note the surrounding aspects of the attitude and approach by Boeing... Is that safe or healthy for humans?

Have the Boeing Management and Directors really no cares that human lives are at stake? The lives of many humans...?


Greedy profits at all costs?

Fly safe folks??
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Boeing:

Whatever next?...


United States v. The Boeing Company
wrote:

On March 25, 2025, the United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas (the “Court”) set the case for trial on Monday, June 23, 2025, at 9:00 AM (CT) ... before Judge Reed O’Connor.

On December 5, 2024, the Court rejected the proposed plea agreement...

... At an arraignment held on January 26, 2023, Boeing entered a plea of not guilty. The Court ordered that Boeing is not to commit another federal, state, or local crime while on release as this case is pending...

Boeing ordered to face June 23 fraud trial over 737 MAX crashes after plea deal collapse
wrote:

A federal judge on Tuesday abruptly set a June 23 trial date in the Justice Department’s criminal fraud case against Boeing...

... In 2023, O’Connor said in Fort Worth, Texas, “Boeing’s crime may properly be considered the deadliest corporate crime in US history.”...

... An accepted plea deal would brand Boeing a convicted felon for conspiring to defraud the Federal Aviation Administration about problematic software affecting the flight control systems in the planes that crashed...

Report: Boeing asks Trump admin to weaken penalties in 737 Max crash case
wrote:

... Boeing and the DOJ both declined to comment when contacted...

Fly safe?...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Report: Boeing asks Trump admin to weaken penalties in 737 Max crash case... Boeing and the DOJ both declined to comment when contacted...

What is Musk advising they do to his competitor?

... In 2023, O’Connor said in Fort Worth, Texas, “Boeing’s crime may properly be considered the deadliest corporate crime in US history.”...

I doubt that. This may will be the deadliest corporate crime where authorities were able to count the victims and prove Boeing's malice.

But the food industry in the end will have killed a thousandfold more people with all these chemical additives. You just can't prove this for each victim.

Report: Boeing asks Trump admin to weaken penalties in 737 Max crash case... Boeing and the DOJ both declined to comment when contacted...

What is Musk advising they do to his competitor?

Force Boeing to sell its space and rocket business before Trump starts to dismantle NASA's wasteful, backward and non-ambitioned lunar projects in favour of the Mars exploration... as propagated by the greatest genius of our time.

When companies are in financial trouble they become desperate and sell off profitable but non-essential business divisions, e.g. their 'gold mining business'. That's resonable as long as the core business divisions still generate a profit...

Boeing sells Jeppesen unit to Thoma Bravo for $10.6 billion