Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

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Message 2133823 - Posted: 13 Mar 2024, 0:31:09 UTC
Last modified: 13 Mar 2024, 0:31:26 UTC

A good summary:

Blancolirio - United B777 #830 SYD Center Hydraulic System Failure

(Other recent Boeing 'incidents' are also mentioned. )


And a rather sober rather worrying summary:

Maximus - ... Boeing Whistleblower Dies In The Middle Of His Boeing Lawsuit Deposition! What Happened?


And then there is this:

Former Boeing Manager Walks Off Flight After Realizing It Was A 737 MAX 9



Fly safe folks?
Martin
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Message 2133835 - Posted: 13 Mar 2024, 4:12:41 UTC

What it really boils down to is American corporate and stock market driven greed that seems to be effecting almost everything everywhere else these days.

Why should a 10% year on year profit be the benchmark when a 4-5% is more than enough to exist on? You won't get either through a standard bank savings account these days and that's for sure.

And some economists would really like to see that benchmark figure cut to an even more realistic like 3-4%.

Save a buck here to make at least 10 now and we'll worry about the consequences later seems to be the motto these days.
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Message 2133852 - Posted: 13 Mar 2024, 13:49:54 UTC

I feel increasingly uncomfortable when you Anglo-Saxons begin to question the moral justification of profit. In the past some based their revolutionary model of a new society, communism, on such criticism disguised as social science. Communism fails. Always.

Greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind. [by a hypothetical figure named Gordon Gecko]
The position of Jaundiced Eye, who unfortunately no longer posts here, is missing.
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Message 2133885 - Posted: 14 Mar 2024, 13:17:33 UTC - in response to Message 2133852.  

Until now, I've found many of your posts interesting.
That now ends & shall just dismiss all future posts as rambling.
This is a serious thread so there is no need to turn it any darker.
This post is borderline racist.
The majority of Anglo-Saxons are hard working.
We all need money to live.
Not all Anglo-Saxons are pure greedy.
There are greedy in each culture & they don't give a crap about their own, just their own greed.
Please stop & think the next time you post.
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Message 2133889 - Posted: 14 Mar 2024, 15:33:38 UTC

Oh dear, what a mess I've done... intended as a short dissent; but far too provocative causing a misunderstanding. I really apologize.

I chose Gecko as the example of predatory capitalism and the other extreme: communism. In between is a range of reason with two red lines separating reason from ideology. Each society determines its policy within. In my opinion, limiting or controlling corporate profits lies outside this range. According to my understanding of Anglo-Saxon economic liberalism, the market ensures this limitation through competition, not the state through controls or bans. My admiration (and source of reassurance) goes to the Anglo-Saxon states for having upheld these principles through all times against the pressure of socialist ideas. This has created sustainable prosperity for the broad masses and the means for a welfare state in many countries around the world, and thus peace. Ideology only destroys; Gecko's very quickly, communist slower, but extensively.

Maybe that's my East German quirk. I am observing increasing efforts to leave the range of reason: interventions, bans, controls, subsidies, ...

Please accept my apology. I had no intention of denigrating Anglo-Saxons as greedy. As to: "JaundicedEye"; meant as a desire for a broad spectrum of opinions in order to continually determine the boundaries between reason and ideology. Too narrow a spectrum of opinions limits thinking about alternatives. (My last post on this.. bc off-topic)

on-topic: What I would admit: Production of large aircraft is no longer a functioning market, as only Airbus and Boeing offer there. Therefore, my criticism of price or profit limits there would be questionable.
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Message 2133891 - Posted: 14 Mar 2024, 16:02:14 UTC - in response to Message 2133889.  

Thanks, Scrooge!

I was just girding myself up to disagree with both of you, but you beat me to it. Any time you draw a line in the sand - any line, any sand - and say "this side good, that side bad", you're storing up trouble for yourself. It's exactly what the British Empire did after both World Wars: lines demarcating Turkey, Iraq, Iran (but not Kurdistan) after the first, and India from East and West Pakistan after the second. That worked out well, didn't it?

I would describe myself as a collaborator or a co-operator - I think some problems are best solved collectively. And I get very twitchy when anyone - usually an American - extrapolates that position to 'socialist' or, in the extreme, 'communist'. There is still a nasty hangover from McCarthyism in some aspects of USA discourse.

There's a similar difference around 'profit' - I was self employed for a quarter of a century, and of course I aimed to make a profit. But a modest one: there are too many examples of extreme and unjustified 'profiteering' in the world today, from bosses who live like Lords while paying their employees the barest minimum, to downright fraud.

How do you pick the bones out of the Russian oligarchs who made massive personal gains out of a so-called communist state?
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Message 2133910 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 0:09:38 UTC - in response to Message 2133791.  

Well that answers that, sort of.

Fifty injured after pilot ‘lost instrumentation’ on LATAM flight from Sydney to Auckland.

The pilot of a Boeing 787 Dreamliner that plunged suddenly en route from Sydney to Auckland on Monday, injuring 50 people, reportedly told passengers after the terrifying incident that his “gauges just blanked out” and he “lost all ability to fly the plane”......

So just who was joining the mile high club in the cockpit and flipped the breaker while they were swinging from the chandelier?

Someone has made up CYA story.

OMG! See Juan Browne's latest Latam update. Cockpit meal may well be the cause!

Do they have the CVR?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9VkV9RS-PI
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Message 2133911 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 0:37:08 UTC - in response to Message 2133910.  
Last modified: 15 Mar 2024, 0:39:31 UTC

... And was the meal and beverage (fluid!!!) scraped off the overhead control panel? And similarly cleaned off the rest of the cockpit controls upon regaining positive G oncemore?

Are all the controls waterproof?...


In all seriousness: Scary.

Unnecessarily so scary ...


Fly safe?
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Message 2133915 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 4:57:26 UTC - in response to Message 2133911.  

In all seriousness: Scary.
Now you are learning about what is normal SOP standard high safety measures fully vetted by safety regulators worldwide.
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Message 2133923 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 14:28:09 UTC - in response to Message 2133889.  
Last modified: 15 Mar 2024, 14:28:58 UTC

Sorry Scrooge.
I've experienced racism from the early days of school right up to retirement.
Couldn't understand it in Primary school as too young.
From Secondary school onwards though.
Sadly, then very rarely got it from other kids but the teachers.
In the early days of working life, still experienced it but it gradly reduced even though it still bubbled under the surface.
Enter "so called" entitled & superior peole. Sheesh.
Entering the hotel & catering industry for a few years after several incidents on the road, one which was fatal shook me up so took a break from logistics.
The snobbery, entitlement & racism was toxic, so glad to get back on the road.
Still experienced snobbery & entitlement, but tunes were changed when driving away from those drops without delivering{ (actually delivered, the sight of us closing the rear doors & about to drive off worked wonders).

To see people like us who enjoyed our work getting labelled as Ango Saxon superior/entitled peple P's me off.
It's too prevalent in society just like the police.
It only takes 1 rotten apple to get the rest tarnished which is not the case.
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Message 2133926 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 16:15:37 UTC - in response to Message 2133910.  
Last modified: 15 Mar 2024, 16:19:12 UTC

... OMG! See Juan Browne's latest Latam update. Cockpit meal may well be the cause!

Do they have the CVR?

blancolirio - LATAM Flt 800 UPDATE! Seat Issue?! 14 March 2024

And so it is!

Read:

Boeing cockpit seat switch mishap reportedly led to Latam flight incident
wrote:
... Boeing has recommended that airlines inspect cockpit chairs of 787 jets for loose covers on switches, according to the Wall Street Journal, which reported that unnamed US industry officials said the incident was the result of a mishap: a flight attendant serving a meal hit a switch on the pilot’s seat, pushing the pilot into the controls.

In a memo issued late on Thursday, seen by the newspaper, Boeing said that closing a spring-loaded seat back switch guard on to a loose rocker switch cap could “potentially jam the rocker switch, resulting in unintended seat movement”.

Boeing did not immediately respond to a request for comment. It is already grappling with a safety crisis...



Yet another design/maintenance/operating 'incident' waiting to happen...

Scary.

In the IT world, food and drink is strictly forbidden in such high tech spaces...

... And such safety critical switches are fail-to-safe protected...


Fly safe folks?
Martin
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Message 2133939 - Posted: 15 Mar 2024, 20:55:22 UTC - in response to Message 2133926.  

Yet another design/maintenance/operating 'incident' waiting to happen...
Yes, crap under the safety cover. Expect that isn't a Boeing only problem.
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Message 2133944 - Posted: 16 Mar 2024, 3:15:08 UTC
Last modified: 16 Mar 2024, 3:16:08 UTC

Another panel failure, probably a maintenance or not closed correctly problem, on older 737.

United-operated Boeing 737 found to have missing panel after landing at Oregon airport
March 15 (Reuters) - A United Airlines (UAL.O), 737-800 landed safely in Oregon Friday after it was found to have a missing external panel, officials said.
United Flight 433 landed at Medford Airport around 1:45 p.m. PDT (2045 GMT) on Friday carrying 139 passengers and six crew after departing from San Francisco, the Federal Aviation Administration and airline said.
The FAA said a post-landing airline inspection of the 25-year-old airplane revealed a missing panel and the agency will investigate as will United.
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Message 2133945 - Posted: 16 Mar 2024, 3:36:21 UTC

Bad news week for Boeing & United Airlines...
Maybe they need to find a 4-leaf clover to get rid of the bad karma
United plane apparently loses external panel mid-flight after taking off from SFO, officials say
United Airlines flight that took off from San Francisco International Airport Friday morning landed in Oregon with a missing external panel, according to officials.

United Flight 433 left San Francisco at 10:20 a.m. and landed at Rogue Valley International-Medford Airport in Medford shortly before noon, according to FlightAware. The airport's director, Amber Judd, said the plane landed safely without incident and the external panel was discovered missing during a post-flight inspection.

The airport paused operations to check the runway and airfield for debris, Judd said, and none was found.

Judd said she believed the United ground crew or pilots doing a routine inspection before the next flight were the ones who noticed the missing panel.

The Boeing 737-800 plane had 139 passengers and six crew members onboard.

United says it will "thoroughly examine the plane and perform repairs and conduct an investigation to know how the damage occurred."

... The missing panel was on the underside of the aircraft where the wing meets the body and just next to the landing gear, United said.
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Message 2133947 - Posted: 16 Mar 2024, 6:12:54 UTC - in response to Message 2133945.  

Is the union for United mechanics negotiating a new contract?

There are some possibilities.
1) FOD damage e.g. something tossed up by a tire on the takeoff roll
2) Forgot to put the screws in
3) Screws backed out due to vibration
4) Metal fatigue
5) Wrong screws

If the screws are missing then 2 or 3 are the prime culprits.

If there are still parts of the panel under the screws then 1 or 4 are the prime culprits.

5 becomes obvious if a wrong one is on the plane.

Some combination of all the above.

Fortunately a very non-critical part of the skin. Only effect would be to burn a little more jet A.
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Message 2133990 - Posted: 17 Mar 2024, 17:29:13 UTC
Last modified: 17 Mar 2024, 17:33:54 UTC

Boeing:

To my reading, this is all deeply scary troubling...


Boeing: How much trouble is the company in?
wrote:
... [Pilot] "I'm at an alert status that I've never had to be in on a Boeing airplane," he says. "Because I don't trust that they've followed the processes that have previously kept me safe on Boeing airplanes for over three decades."...

... in January, when a disused emergency exit door blew off a brand new Boeing 737 Max shortly after take-off ... Boeing is reportedly facing a criminal investigation into the incident itself, as well as legal action from passengers aboard the plane...

... Five years ago Boeing faced one of the biggest scandals in its history, after two brand new 737 Max planes were lost in almost identical accidents that cost 346 lives. The cause was flawed flight control software, details of which it was accused of deliberately concealing...

... Earlier this month the US regulator, the Federal Aviation Administration, said that a six-week audit of the 737 Max production process at Boeing and its supplier Spirit Aerosystems had found "multiple instances where the companies failed to comply with manufacturing quality control requirements".

The findings came shortly after another report into Boeing's safety culture by an expert panel found a "disconnect" between senior management and regular staff, as well as signs that staff were hesitant about reporting problems for fear of retaliation...

... "The culture at Boeing has been toxic to trust for over a decade now," he says. "You can add safety steps, you can add procedures. But the fundamental issue of distrust makes those changes almost ineffective"...

... further evidence of how production problems could endanger safety emerged this week. The FAA warned that improperly installed wiring bundles on 737 Max planes could become damaged, leading to controls on the wings deploying unexpectedly, and making the aircraft start to roll. If not addressed, it said, this "could result in loss of control of the airplane". Hundreds of planes already in service will have to be checked as a result...

... Whistleblower John Barnett, who was found dead last weekend, had worked at Boeing's factory in South Carolina from 2010 until his retirement in 2017... he had claimed the rush to build planes as quickly as possible in order to maximise profits had led to unsafe practices... Boeing denied his claims. But his untimely death, which occurred between legal hearings in a lawsuit against the company, has focused new attention on them...

... the market needs Boeing to be healthy, and to overcome its current problems quickly. So can that happen?...

... "Boeing, their suppliers, airlines, and government agencies are capable of overcoming these challenges, but the first step in fixing these problems is being honest," he says

"They need to admit these problems exist and stop trying to spin the truth. The more they spin, the longer it takes to solve the problems and the greater the risk."...



What else is there to be found ignored and hidden under the Boeing Management carpet of spin and obfuscation?...

How can all that truly be safely fixed?


Fly safe??
Martin
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Message 2134062 - Posted: 20 Mar 2024, 0:14:47 UTC

Very sadly, yet another deadly Boeing 'issue':


How Boeing "DID IT" - Meet The Man John Mitch Barnett. Find Who He Really Was And How Boeing Did "IT"


That summary is very well put together...

Judge for yourselves...


Fly safe?...
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Message 2134065 - Posted: 20 Mar 2024, 0:22:19 UTC - in response to Message 2134062.  

ps:

One comment posted amongst the comments for that is:

Whether Boeing "did it" or not, does anyone truly believe at this point that Boeing wouldn't do it?



Would you gamble your life for the sake of extra profits for Boeing?

Fly safe?
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Message 2134114 - Posted: 21 Mar 2024, 13:37:16 UTC

Typically Boeing in the news:


Boeing Issues Safety Advisory Following LATAM Boeing 787 Plunge
wrote:
... According to preliminary reports and findings, the unexpected plunge of the 787 could have been triggered by a flight attendant inadvertently activating a switch on a cockpit seat.



Meanwhile, is this part of a deadly game of "outsourcing" all blame and responsibility?...

Boeing & Alaska Airlines Will Not Accept Responsibility For Injuries On MAX 9 Door Plug Blowout
wrote:
... both Boeing and Alaska Airlines have filed court documents disavowing liability...




Fly safe with that?...
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Message 2134174 - Posted: 23 Mar 2024, 0:07:41 UTC

Meanwhile:

How long will this website keep flying?


Am I flying on a Boeing?
wrote:
Are you flying Boeing?

Boeing's been in the news for all the wrong reasons lately. Put in your next flight number and check your fate flight...



Not all Airlines are checkable.

... But at least this is a start...


Fly safe?
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Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)


 
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