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Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
For a surprisingly forthright summary of the multiple disasters: Megaprojects - MCAS: The Silent Killer on the 737 MAX wrote: A tale of cost-cutting and tragedy. Discover the shocking history, fatal crashes, and investigations that exposed corporate misconduct, shattered public trust, and led to lawsuits... That is quite unusual for such a topic to be aired by that channel. And was there even one lawyers destroying "allegedly" uttered throughout that?... (Note: Not that I heard anywhere!) Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... And for a badly Boeing update?... Judge rejects Boeing request to block pain and suffering damages for crash victims who died upon impact wrote: A federal judge rejected arguments from attorneys for Boeing that it should not have to pay for the pain and suffering of 157 victims of a March 2019 Boeing 737 Max crash because they all died on impact... Boeing says certification of 737 MAX 7 is taking 'considerable amount of time' wrote: The certification of the Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 MAX 7 is taking a "considerable amount of time" due to new documentation requirements... Boeing sued for allegedly stealing intellectual property related to NASA's Artemis moon rocket wrote: The suit alleges Boeing's improper use of stolen technology put astronauts' lives at risk and led to ongoing SLS launch delays... Boeing delays 1st Starliner astronaut launch for NASA indefinitely over parachute, wiring safety issues wrote: Boeing's first Starliner astronaut flight was scheduled for July 21. It won't fly this summer, but a fall launch is 'feasible.'... Phew! Unbelievable?... And really?... Only 'discovered' at the last moment during review?? And how can anyone in the industry ever forget, or not be aware of, Apollo 1?... Fly safe?! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
This isn't the first time... See: Blancolirio - NTSB Final Report Transair 810 737 Ditching Honolulu July 2021 For one apt comment from the comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQjLIXdebr4&lc=UgyOtlKXMXo7pTYiiZd4AaABAg wrote: oh man, imagine going thru all that while you've got a perfectly functional engine notched at idle the entire time Note: In total darkness, over an inky black ocean, scraping along at less than 2000', and with faltering power... That is very difficult very high stress... All impossibly fraught in the dark to be fumbling with paper check-lists and trying to untangle a confusion of old steam gauges! ... And yet... Really? There is no lives saving modern day EICAS/ECAM retrofitted?! We have well over 50 years of safety to add to those old Boeing gauges. Hell, even a RaspberryPi could be bolted on to do the reporting! Note that this problem with the Boeing cockpit is not the first example... There is an almost identical crash for this fatal example: Wikipedia - Kegworth air disaster UK Air Accidents Investigation Branch - Kegworth 8 January 1989 Do not underestimate the difficulty of correctly diagnosing faults whilst busy flying! Especially so when faced with a gazillion old dials and flashing lights and a death siren screaming in your ears... Fly safe?! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30980 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
This isn't the first time...And there have been dozens since ... and there will be dozens more. Juan's very apt comment at the start, "A story as old as aviation itself as long as we have had twin engine aircraft" simply states the very obvious fact. Human brains under stress screw up. No amount of fancy bells and whistles can compensate for it, in fact they may increase the stress. See CRM. <ed>The Rhoades Aviation Boeing 737 Aircraft Operations Manual wrote: Any time an engine shutdown is required in flight, good crew coordination is I'm suspecting that the pilot training may be a factor, no matter the NTSB report. My speculation is that in all those simulator flights of engine out, when the instructor failed the engine, they completely failed the engine. Faced with a partial failure, seeing any thrust set in the mind that was a good engine. If you aren't in a situation you train for, first you have to realize you are not in the situation you trained for before you can react to the situation you do face. The parts about CRM are also extremely important to understand. Many bad outcomes have happened when one member suspected something but kept his mouth shut because (usually the pecking order chain) ... There are three things necessary 1) Current (legal minimum practice) 2) Competent (know what to do) 3) Proficient (able to stay ahead of any situation) All three are necessary for safety with the third being paramount. The accident aircraft was made in 1975. Glass cockpit did not exist then. I'm not going to argue if a 40+ year old plane should be doing several cargo runs a day, but that decision is not Boeing's but the owner's. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... I'm suspecting that the pilot training may be a factor, no matter the NTSB report. ... Faced with a partial failure, seeing any thrust set in the mind that was a good engine. If you aren't in a situation you train for, first you have to realize you are not in the situation you trained for before you can react to the situation you do face... ... And facing reality is very real and very different from bland words in a cozy (eg: Boeing) office. So... Looking at those engine gauges... That's a LOT of steps of understanding and diagnosis to work out what might be happening! For that deadly example, there is far too much thought required there when you're concentrating hard on flying through pitch black darkness, with no frame of reference other than the artificial horizon on the instruments, AND you know you're desperately low and slow and an engine has somehow failed. SO... According to Boeing... Then the pilots are to take "time out" to sit back, have a stiff drink, and diagnose two or three pages of checklists once they've thumbed through a thick paper manual for a checklist that fits the circumstance, all in the subdued light of a darkened cockpit over an inky black ocean, an ocean that is perilously all too close below?!... And we already know this type of deadly peril will happen again, and overwhelm the pilots yet again, and most likely people will die. We know this, and we already have very well proven aviation tech (EICAS/ECAM) for the cockpit that is readily available to remedy this. And yet... Boeing continue to fly long long outdated cockpits to then blame everything on the overwhelmed pilots... We really do know better since over 50 years ago. That knowing better should be used to avoid unnecessarily risking people's lives. In my opinion, the Boeing cockpit is as ridiculous as driving a motor vehicle on known bald tires and with a broken brake pedal... And yet Boeing continue to MAKE and fly outdated cockpits. Really? Just hope and pray that 'nothing goes wrong'?... Until the next Boeing deadly crash. Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30980 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Boeing continue to fly long long outdated cockpits to then blame everything on the overwhelmed pilots...Boeing doesn't fly. Owners do. Or are you saying Boeing should have charged enough when the plane was made in 1975 to refit the airplane with some tech that didn't exist when the last Boeing employee touched the plane? You should talk to some pilots. Many want to learn their skills on steam gauges because it gives them a deeper knowledge of what is going on and how to fix it. Then they have to be retrained on glass due to the information deficit. Finally you seem to be on about paper. Do you not know of the EFB? The i-Pad and i-Phone. Yes Apple products. All the paper is in it. All searchable. On top of that it has GPS. It displays maps and charts. And with Fore-Flight (a Boeing product) it does full flight planning, and even talks to the government computers. I assure you this Boeing Product is used on every Airbus. Don't forget Jeppesen that publishes the instrument procedures for every airport worldwide is a Boeing division. Now there is nothing preventing the owner from putting in glass on their 1975 Boeing 737-200 airplane. Take it to any avionics shop, drop it off with a big check and say Garmin Glass please. Pick it up a few months later and fly your amazing glass panel. But the government made you put placards on the airplane that read: "Passenger warning - this aircraft does not comply with federal safety regulations for standard aircraft." And with that it no longer can carry passengers or cargo for hire. The problem isn't Boeing, the problem is the Government a/k/a the legislature. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1132 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
There are three things necessaryI think it was safe in 1975, even in 1990 or 2000. Until then all pilots knew how to fly classic jetliners without all the automatic aids. Maybe no longer today. There's one argument I read somewhere. In the U.S. a remarkable portion of commercial pilots earned their wings from Air Force, Navy, Air National Guard. They flew military planes and learned lots of irregular stuff. They are aware of unforeseen events. In Europe, or Asia, there are few military pilots. Today, at the end of their training, commercial pilots learn how to fly a modern jetliner. After a few years practice, inferior pilots mainly monitor the automatic systems. (Boeing 737 Max crashed in Asia and Ethiopia also due to a lack of pilot's competence). They aren't ahead of the situation but observers of computer displays when unforeseen things happen. And now such younger pilot, with no experience on older jetliners, is being retrained on the Boeing 737-200. I think it depends very much on the airline to ensure professionalism of its pilots, which is hardly possible when it's a small cargo airline operating two or three old jets. [EDIT:]I read Gary's comment too late. I repeated his statement: Pilots learn their skills best on planes with steam gauge cockpits. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1132 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
We know this, and we already have very well proven aviation tech (EICAS/ECAM) for the cockpit that is readily available to remedy this.I think it's unfair to point fingers on Boeing only. The specification of a new generation of e.g. 737 is at the beginning a discussion of Boeing with major airlines (lead customers). These airlines have large fleets of Boeing 737 NG planes (e.g. 737-800). Boeing could have easily modernized the cockpit to include EICAS/ECAM (like in the 757/767). But this leads to a different type rating for the 737 Max. You have to qualify your pilots to different type ratings. Costs, flexibility of crew planning... The airlines with large fleets don't want that. It would be a significant cost disadvantage vs. an A320 fleet. And yet Boeing continue to MAKE and fly outdated cockpits.Boeing knows how to make state-of-the-art cockpits for 737 with EICAS/ECAM if there are no restrictions concerning the plane's type rating. It's the military Boeing P-8 Poseidon based on 737 NG. Really? Just hope and pray that 'nothing goes wrong'?... Until the next Boeing deadly crash.I had this impression myself after the crashes and some large European airlines (Icelandair, Ryanair, TUI/Thomson airways) switching to 737 Max fleets. I read lots of the fantastic articles by Dominic Gates (Pulitzer price winner) in the Seattle Times on the reasons for the deadly Max crashes and the subsequent overhaul of the MCAS system. Fly safe?...The European EASA did not take over the US approval this time, but examined everything very critically itself. The 737 Max Jets are certified and now as safe as Airbus A320. Boeing suffered a great deal of financial damage and learned from it, as did US authorities. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30980 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
It isn't the plane that has become unsafe with the passage of time, it is humans. We have been trained to have shorter attention spans and less understanding of complexities. That is bad not just for the skill of flying but for so much of life.The accident aircraft was made in 1975. Glass cockpit did not exist then. I'm not going to argue if a 40+ year old plane should be doing several cargo runs a day, but that decision is not Boeing's but the owner's.I think it was safe in 1975, even in 1990 or 2000. Until then all pilots knew how to fly classic jetliners without all the automatic aids. Maybe no longer today. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
A British inquest into the death of three Britons in the Ethiopian B737 Max crash in 2019 has come back with a verdict of "unlawful killing" by Boeing. Boeing plane crash: Coroner rules Britons unlawfully killed Three British people who died in a plane crash were unlawfully killed, a coroner has ruled.That'll stir the pot nicely. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Yet another profitably 'humdrum' month at Boeing: Boeing Completes{-ing} 737NG Nacelle Redesign Work wrote: ... redesign work and retrofit instructions on 737 Next Generation nacelles to better protect them from broken fan blades but needs more time to address risks linked to human-factors issues such as leaving access doors unlatched... Software Validation Issue Prompts Boeing 737{MAX}-7 Exemption Request wrote: Boeing is requesting the 737-7 be temporarily exempted from complying with two FAA regulations so the model’s certification can proceed, saying it will ensure the two non-compliances are addressed as part of the 737-10 approval process and apply any needed changes to the entire 737 MAX fleet... FAA addresses Boeing 767 inoperative horizontal stabilizer trim switches wrote: ... the decision to issue the directive was prompted by reports of inoperative manual and alternate horizontal stabilizer trim switches from operators. “The FAA is issuing this AD to address collected water or ice that could damage the [limit switch and position transmitter module (LSPTM)] and cause stabilizer trim position sensors to generate corrupt or erroneous signals to the flight crew,” the agency’s AD read, adding that the condition could result in “misleading or confusing flight deck indications, a high speed overrun during takeoff, or a low altitude stall immediately after takeoff”. Boeing 767 slide ends up in Chicago home’s backyard wrote: I suppose this fits into the category of “all’s well that ends well,” but this is still mighty unusual, and kind of scary... Navy set to lose out on jets due to row with Boeing wrote: Boeing and the Navy aren’t getting along, and it’s costing the military essential jets needed to phase out aging aircraft and be prepared for potential conflict with China... Really? Cargo crews, especially FedEx, are expendable?? Rules and good will and safety? ... Only for the bits and pieces that Boeing chooses?... Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30980 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
ML1, want to hear how you spin this to be Boeing's fault? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j1gTCmQku0 After all Boeing uses P&W engines on some of it planes. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Please explain your spin? Safe flying! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Meanwhile, is this the cost of retro-fitting death-defying essentials?... Boeing has now lost $1.1 billion on Starliner, with no crew flight in sight wrote: "We're not really ready to talk about a launch opportunity yet."... Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Another Boeing 737-MAX saga in the making?... ... Meet the Boeing 777X: Boeing Says 777X & 737 MAX Certification Delays Could Lead To "Significant Order Cancelations" wrote: Boeing’s timeline slip on the 737 MAX could have impacts beyond being unable to deliver the new jets to customers. Alongside this, the planemaker has flagged potential risks in maintaining its orderbook for the flagship 777X... My personal impression from reading that is that, Boeing were/are trying to pull a "fast one" using the same design/test/certification excuses as used to develop the 737MAX aircraft and... EASA is flagging up the deficiencies in that game... Lack of critically redundant systems? Lack of whatever else??... To the tune of $1000 Million of "short cuts", so far?... I also read an undercurrent in there that "testing" and "certification" are an afterthought and somehow "abnormal" and are something that are seen to be getting in the way, and something to throw all the 'blame' at for any delays, against Boeing's rush/push for getting the latest Boeing baby out-of-the-door... Whatever happened to iterating through design and test to prove and improve the design? And to be safe? And to have that properly scheduled in from the outset?... Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1132 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
Yes, the FAA and EASA will now have a closer look at the 777X project. This will delay the project for one or two years. But with the enlarged 777X, equipped with modern engines, Boeing will finally offer a modern, fuel-efficient aircraft again for which Airbus has no competing model. Many aging Jumbos or older 777s are still in long-haul service on e.g. routes from Europe to SE Asia which are likely to be replaced by 777Xs. German Lufthansa is going to replace all of its older Jumbos (747-400) and all (not so fuel efficient) A380s with 777X. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
More of the Boeing game?... Starliner undergoing three independent investigations as flight slips to 2024 wrote: ... Boeing has reported $1.1 billion in losses for its Starliner program, which is one of two vehicles that NASA helped support development of to fly astronauts to the space station. The other vehicle, SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft, flew its crew test flight in May 2020. Dragon's seventh operational mission, Crew-7, is due to launch in about two weeks... More of the Boeing "Abnormal" 'trifling activities' "getting in the way" that they are blaming for costs and delays?... The Angry Astronaut gives a good summary on: A new disaster for Boeing Starliner... Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Continuing in the Boeing way?... Long long long after when this should have been first discovered and fixed, we have: Boeing Redesigning 737 MAX Nacelle Part Following Anti-Ice Testing Discovery wrote: Boeing is redesigning a 737 MAX engine nacelle component after discovering that operating the anti-ice system in certain conditions can damage the part and operators will be required to adhere to certain limits until the fix is complete... What happened to testing during the original design?... Fly safe?! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21118 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... And we have the curiously conflicting results of some successful lobbying: House votes to speed approval of safety fixes to Boeing jets despite critics wrote: A sweeping piece of aviation legislation passed last week by the U.S. House includes an obscure amendment that allows airliners to continue flying with partial safety upgrades, even though they don’t fully meet current safety standards... Deadly issues of who pays the consequences of the gambles and games on an accountant's spreadsheet?... All a gamble of just how much profit turns deadly? Fly safe??... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30980 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
What happened to testing during the original design?...They followed the FAA mandated testing perfectly. We all know how well government works when put in charge. |
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