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Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19399 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Electronics do not work well in places of extreme temperatures, high or low, or pressure and don't like being vibrated, but we need to monitor environments where such conditions are frequently found and therefore we fit sensors. Probably in a space vehicle thousands of them, for example a Formula One car has about 300 sensors and sensors on them fail frequently. And a space vehicle probably has a higher range temps and pressure and they shake rattle and roll like nobodies business. So sensor failure has to be expected, even after the space vehicle major components have been tested ad infinitum. To overcome sensor failure you could duplicate, err maybe not 737max, or triplicate the sensors but think of the extra complexity and weight, the weight problem is not the sensors but the wiring and it's required shielding. And there is another problem currents and voltage variations from sensors are very low and almost certainly go through several plugs and sockets, that in itself electronically speaking a good idea. How many times have you heard a crackly microphone or a headphone speaker not working because a bad connector. So when it looks like a sensor output is questionable and it stops some event, just occasionally think of all the problems faced and stop the blaming, unless exactly the same sensor fails multiple times. And what's the betting they could have lit the blue touch paper and nothing wrong would have happened. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
So when it looks like a sensor output is questionable and it stops some event, just occasionally think of all the problems faced and stop the blaming, unless exactly the same sensor fails multiple times.You want the failures [they are going to happen - made by man] on the ground while the vehicle is safe. Looks like it did just exactly what it should have done. Haven't seen a report and don't expect to, but what do you bet 3 of 4 engines were showing nominal temperature and only one abnominal. I'm sure they have flow rate sensors on the chill lines and you know they have a clock. Not the first time they have chilled the engines. They knew exactly how cold it was never mind the reading. Mission rules for man rated craft require all parts working when they leave the pad, if not abort. Same for test flights. Fix it on the ground. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
All a game of conjecture... However... There appear to be more excuses and politics than real detail. Was this launch attempt as much a wet dress rehearsal with launch as a bonus?... Except... The present incarnation of SLS is running out of time and expire dates to get to be flight worthy... See the Angry Astronaut's take on the game of play: The politics and excuses: Artemis 1 scrub and the arrogance of people... wrote: ... Everyone expects a scrub on the first attempt. HOWEVER, after learning about the series of avoidable errors that led to the scrub, and the sheer arrogance of those who ... With the current untimely Boeing backdrop of: Starliner on Life Support!!... wrote: ... NASA now has more SpaceX flights that they need for ISS, if Starliner were actually going into service. Plus, Boeing has very good reasons to want out of this contract anyway. And here's why... Here's hoping all goes well, but at what cost?... Fly safe! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... Haven't seen a report and don't expect to, but what do you bet 3 of 4 engines were showing nominal temperature and only one abnominal. I'm sure they have flow rate sensors on the chill lines and you know they have a clock. Not the first time they have chilled the engines. They knew exactly how cold it was never mind the reading. ... Exactly so... Why should out of 4 well tested well proven sensors, 1 is arbitrarily deemed to be 'wrong'? And being assumed 'wrong' just because it doesn't give the hoped for reading should be a non-starter all round!! So why might one engine not adequately chill down?... Assuming the sensor is fine, then all of: faulty valves; restricted flow rate; damaged/blocked pipework; adverse environment; all must be proven not applicable. Better is to actually directly confirm what has happened to the sensor... After all, Boeing is well known for faulty valves... Fly safe! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... And at last we have an accurate explanation. See: NASASpaceflight 2022/09/03 - NASA Launches Artemis I to the Moon Aboard SLS (Temperature sensor question) (Approximate time into the stream...) In brief: The temperature sensors on all four engines themselves, on the day all read the correct cool-down temperatures. The problem temperature sensor was one that is on a bleed line high up on the core tank... Hence, they had sensors giving the correct temperatures for the core tank itself, and for all four engines. Then also, three out of the four bleed lines were reading correctly with the fourth (for the bleed line to engine three) being anomalous. So that does suggest that the bleed line sensor was at fault. There is still the concern and the question of why... Loss of thermal insulation or loss of thermal contact or really, somehow a faulty sensor?... However, the end result is that the cooling of the respective engine is still indicated to be ok so... Hey ho? Here's hoping for a good flight! Fly safe!! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22528 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Cryo temperature sensors are sensitive beasts. At LNH temperatures (~20K) they have a surprisingly large tolerance, and they can drift in and out of calibration if you sneeze at the wrong moment. Give me 4K any day of the week, and <1K at least once a month...... Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
This time it is valve related. https://apnews.com/article/astronomy-space-launches-exploration-science-9a89bb77af17be3e3b5891a0b224ac69 Mission manager Mike Sarafin told journalists it was too early to tell what caused the leak, but it may have been due to inadvertent over-pressurization of the hydrogen line earlier in the morning when someone sent commands to the wrong valve. The way he said it, saboteur? |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
This time it is valve related. From my view, much more likely is that of an operator tripping over unscripted or "ad-hoc" procedures... Every little detail counts... Fly safe! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
For the latest ad-hoc Boeing round-up, we have: Global air travel last year: 22 million jet flights, just one fatal accident wrote: How safe is air travel? Last year, when large commercial jets took off 21.6 million times throughout the world, there was just one fatal accident. Boeing targets early 2023 for first Starliner mission carrying astronauts wrote: ... Boeing Co is targeting February 2023 to fly its first Starliner mission with astronauts aboard to the International Space Station, Boeing and NASA officials said on Thursday, as the aerospace company nears the final leg of a costly and much-delayed development timeline... Army grounds fleet of Chinook helicopters after engine fires wrote: ... The Army said Tuesday it has grounded its fleet of about 400 Chinook cargo helicopters after fuel leaks caused a “small number” of engine fires... Maintenance error likely cause of Alaska Air 737 engine incident wrote: ... the covers on both sides of the left engine pod — called a nacelle — came loose. When the pilots promptly turned back to Seattle, the covers ripped off completely on landing and pieces hit the fuselage. Boeing expects MAX 7 to be certified before MAX 10 - executive wrote: ... Boeing Co expects the 737 MAX 7 will be certified by the end of the year and the larger MAX 10 in the first half of 2023, a company executive said on Thursday. My summary for that little lot is that this is the same old continuing stories of fuel leaks, FOD, and of 'gaming' the safety requirements, as I see it, to cheaply cut corners and the safety be damned. Fly safe? Martin FOD: Foreign Objects/Debris (or otherwise leaving manufacturing rubbish behind in fuel tanks and pipework). See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19399 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Confusion reigns between all the parties who want to have a say in the certification of 737max variants. Exclusive: Boeing doesn't expect MAX 10 to gain FAA approval before summer 2023 WASHINGTON, Oct 3 (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) does not anticipate winning approval for the 737 MAX 10 before next summer, according to a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) letter sent on Monday that intensifies concerns about the company's timeline for deliveries. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Thanks for that. ... And the twists and turns of that gets even more convoluted for how MCAS was eventually posthumously certified: See: Why The FAA Should Ground EVERY Boeing MAX Again! wrote: The FAA Still wont certify Boeing's Max-7 Because they feel it's not been proven safe. If that's true I'll tell you why the FAA should ground ALL MAX Jets until the Seven is Certified... Special note: The 737 Max-7 is the smallest (lightest, most agile, most easily controlled?) of the 737 variants... Does that not suggest that MCAS hasn't been properly tested and certified for all worst case conditions for all the variants?... Ouch!!! That is quite a deadly pickle for everyone playing that game... ... And that is in addition to Boeing continuing manufacturing and flying old outdated cockpits that do not meet modern day safety standards. Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
... And that is in addition to Boeing continuing manufacturing and flying old outdated cockpits that do not meet modern day safety standards. Does this mean every antique car should immediately taken off the road and crushed? |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... And that is in addition to Boeing continuing manufacturing and flying old outdated cockpits that do not meet modern day safety standards. There's a whole world of difference of the consequences between considering aircraft vs a few old bangers... We retrofit buildings with improved fire safety and improved fire/security alarms and improved energy efficiency... How far do we allow Boeing to needlessly risk the lives of people and kill yet more people by constructively ignoring the last 50 years of safety improvements?... Note that we have regulations requiring passenger vehicles to meet present day standard or be upgraded or be scrapped. Even for just taxi cabs!... Why not similarly so for Boeing aircraft? Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
... And that is in addition to Boeing continuing manufacturing and flying old outdated cockpits that do not meet modern day safety standards. Really? Grenfell Tower. May be a few bangers over there, but here it is tons. And they tried to get rid of them with smog regulations, but couldn't. Only have to pass standards of when their design was approved*. So no seat belts, no crumple zones, no smog controls ... . *It isn't Boeing's fault that the government sets the rule that way. Bitch about the FAA and all the other regulators allowing it. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Judge for yourselves how this goes... Boeing Charged With Stock Fraud! SEC Fines Boeing Over 200 Million Dollars! BUT Who Gets The Money? wrote: ... Boeing and Ex Ceo charged with Stock Manipulation and Lying to Investors. But will they STILL Escape Jail? And who gets to keep the fine money? So... What does it take to bring meaningful consequences to the Boing board for their deadly dealings? Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
... Boeing and Ex Ceo charged with Stock Manipulation and Lying to Investors. But will they STILL Escape Jail?SEC can only bring civil charges. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
At very long last: US Judge: Passengers in Fatal Boeing 737 MAX Crashes are 'Crime Victims' What next? Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31006 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
US Judge: Passengers in Fatal Boeing 737 MAX Crashes are 'Crime Victims' defraud verb illegally obtain money from (someone) by deception. What money did Boeing obtain from the FAA? I suspect this gets overturned on a technicality. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19399 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Reuters report of Boeing's 3rd qtr. Boeing takes $2.8 bln hit in defense business, keeps cash flow goal |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21212 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Pilot error, shoddy maintenance, or design fault? Sriwijaya Air crash which killed 62 people blamed on {faulty} throttle and pilot error wrote: ... the Sriwijaya Air Boeing 737-500 plane crash last year which killed 62 people was due to a faulty throttle system and delayed pilot response. My understanding is that was yet another (deadly) critical single-point-of-failure. This latest example left the pilots suddenly, unexpectedly, with the plane stalled and cartwheeling onto its side and into a dive. A previous similar incident, but instead with a Boeing 747 suffering a similar stall due to asymmetric thrust, the very alert pilots on that occasion needed over 20,000" to recover and wrote off the aircraft. Fortunately, on that occasion they were able to make a safe landing. And from my own personal observations, Boeing continue to make and deliver hopelessly out of date cockpits... Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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