Message boards :
Politics :
Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
Message board moderation
Previous · 1 . . . 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · Next
Author | Message |
---|---|
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 26276 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 ![]() ![]() |
Reports just coming in now from an analysis of radar tracking have estimated that the plane hit the ground at between 1,000-1,100km/h, black boxes are only designed to survive an impact of 499km/h. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29175 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 ![]() ![]() |
Reports just coming in now from an analysis of radar tracking have estimated that the plane hit the ground at between 1,000-1,100km/h, black boxes are only designed to survive an impact of 499km/h.540knots. You might think Vne could be found on the web, secret number. Vmo is 340knots IAS. The radar data would be TAS +/- wind. To convert pressure altitude and temperature are needed. As the altitude wasn't that high, the airplane was well above Vmo and likely well above Vne. Very well built as it appeared to be largely in one piece. |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
Latest update: China plane crash... wrote: ... It is hoped the cockpit voice recorder, recovered intact, will yield clues. It was damaged on the outside but its internal records appeared to be fine, officials said. It has been sent to Beijing for its data to be analysed... The ADSB tracking plot in that article from FlightRadar24 is suggestive: ![]() Does that show a recovery from a drastic first stall, to then stall again for a second time? That looks very much like a profile that I've flown for a demonstration failed stall recovery (and to show off how stable the aircraft was). For my example, the control stick was pulled back and continuously held back against the endstop. You then get to experience some stomach sickening roller coaster type swoops until you either release the control stick or otherwise do something useful! My example was very definitely a demonstration with a very experienced instructor and we lost a mere 1000' for two swoops. (Good test for being properly strapped in!) ((NB: That was in a semi-acrobatic aircraft. Care needed to stay within spec!...)) For the 737 example... Was their deadly swoop caused by extreme (runaway?) trim for which the very experienced pilots couldn't recover? Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 26276 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 ![]() ![]() |
The data storage section of the 2nd black box has been recovered out of the ground, but whether either will be any good is yet to be determined. Second 'black box' found in China Eastern plane crash. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29175 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 ![]() ![]() |
People not equipment ... https://simpleflying.com/british-pilot-falsifying-flying-records/ Just how common is it (falsification) in the transport world? |
W-K 666 ![]() Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 17480 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
Cracked cockpit window on a Delta Airlines 757-232, flight 760 from Salt Lake City to Washington D.C. that did emergency landing in Denver. ![]() https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10676269/Delta-pilots-land-jet-safely-cockpit-windshield-cracks.html |
W-K 666 ![]() Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 17480 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
Air France Boeing 777 aborts landing at Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport, because the plane went nuts. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-06/air-france-landing-scare-prompts-french-probe-on-777-flight A recording published on the site chronicles fraught moments when pilots struggled with controls. |
W-K 666 ![]() Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 17480 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
Youtube audio from Control tower and pilots, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCNKhFOPqU French with English subtitles. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29175 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 ![]() ![]() |
Juan Browne says GIGO, with the possibility of ground equipment interference. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslSQB5mgyc |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
Juan Browne says GIGO, with the possibility of ground equipment interference. Thanks for that. Yes, Blancolirio does give a very good very clear and non-sensational report. He's updated his comment on that incident: "UPDATE 8 April- Pilot Error- TO/GA hit 4 times by the pilots!" However... I'm sure there is more to the story yet to unfold. There must have been some very high 'startle factor' or other effects for the pilots to act as though panicked... One to follow up on... Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
For this month's round-up of Boeing profits: Is Boeing ever to be 'trusted' to certify planes ever again?... CNBC: Outgoing FAA chief Steve Dickson on Boeing Dreamliner issues and China Eastern Airlines crash Meanwhile, has Boeing tripped over its own gaming of modern day certification safety to stay profitably cheaply (unsafely?) stuck in the past? Maximus: FAA Warns Boeing The Max 10 Won't Be Certified This Year. Unless Congress Act's It Could Be Scrapped And scarily for just this last month! Note that sadly, people have died... Maximus: Boeing Planes Suffer 8 Major Incidents In Less Than 30 Days. Is There A Problem With Boeing Planes? Blancolirio gives a very informative roundup of some of those 'incidents': Air France 11 B777-300 CDG 5 April 2022 (Same link as in previous post. Included here for completeness.) China Eastern Airlines #5735 UPDATE! 23 March DHL 757-200 San Jose, Costa Rica 7 April 2022 Malaysia Airlines MH2664 737-800 Unreliable Airspeed 3 April 2022 My personal take on those incidents gives some big questions about how safely 'redundant' are those various critical flight control systems, and how the Boeing cockpit design seems to give the pilots a very hard time if anything goes wrong... Is good robust safety really that expensive? What cost are the lives of the passengers and crew and of people on the ground?... Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
Would you trust Boeing to launch you into space?... Another day, another glitch with NASA and SLS! Is this as bad as Boeing Starliner? Note that the SLS and Starliner are "Human Rated" and hence supposedly are guaranteed to work fully, safely, every time, including the first time... So, how many arms and legs is all that costing?!... (For a very bad joke.) Hopefully this is all silly enough that some good positive change can be made to make some good progress not too far in the future... Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29175 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 ![]() ![]() |
It looks very much like standards have fallen dramatically with Covid. Experience retired. Wet behind the ears in charge. Its not just in the airline industry, or transportation, but across the board. Certified means you passed the test. Competent means you demonstrated in the past you could do it. Current means you are doing it frequently. Currency is what is lost by Covid. |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
A little 'good' news for Boeing?... FAA Says It's Ready To Lift Grounding Order On Boeing 777's With PW-4000 Engines wrote: In the wake of a series of engine explosions on Boeing 777-200 and 300 aircraft, after more than a year on the ground the FAA say's it is ready to lift the ban on these aircraft worldwide ... Except... Are not those FAA (must do) directives what are required of a passenger aircraft design in the first place? That is, the present design has proven to be deficient... Has Boeing developed a new business model whereby aircraft groundings have moved from the category "Unheard of!" to the new category of "Standard practice, profitably part of the business plan."?... Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 ![]() Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 17480 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 ![]() ![]() |
Too many Boeing problems to list, you will just have to read it, Boeing shares plunge on array of charges, 737 MAX target in doubt |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 26276 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 ![]() ![]() |
More on the Air France 777 incident and all is not looking good for the pilots. Air France pilots almost crash Boeing 777 in Paris amid struggle. The pilots of an Air France flight from New York to Paris who struggled to control the plane before landing were engaged in a kind of tug of war – apparently unaware of each other’s inputs on the controls, according to a report.I bet that Air France's pilot training procedures will be under intense examination after that. |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29175 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
... I bet that Air France's pilot training procedures will be under intense examination after that. Blancolirio gives a very good summary for that: blancolirio - Air France 11 UPDATE BEA Preliminary Report So... The plane behaved exactly as it should, throughout... Sounds like BOTH pilots panicked and for a while forgot that the other pilot was there!... More of a question is: Why? Lack of "feel" for the aircraft? Pilot induced oscillation that continued to increase, unrecognized? Too little trust in the instruments and too much startle factor?... Or are Boeing cockpits just a little too 'difficult'? Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 15993 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 ![]() ![]() |
Airbus has a pitch up problem sounds like Boeing. Thanks for that one. Indeed so... Except... To what extent? All jets with such big under-slung engines have the convenience of easy maintenance but the compromise of revving up the engines causing the nose to push upwards. For that Airbus example, that list adds up to pretty much the worst case scenario, regardless, which must still be handled. Very good that Airbus have identified that and are proactively putting in a fix to keep the jobs of the pilots easy and less stressful. Also note that Airbus have fully independent triple redundancy by design on the critical sensors needed to coordinate keeping the aircraft pitch safely controlled. Shame Boeing had to wait for hundreds of people to be killed, and still procrastinated yet further, for yet more people to be killed, before reluctantly putting in place some partial fixes with incomplete redundancy. All just to keep the pilots hot in their hot seat? Quite a different approach... All just my uneducated humble personal observations as always, Stay safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
![]() ![]() Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 26276 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 ![]() ![]() |
Considering how airlines around the world these days are complaining about staff shortages I wonder if fatigue was an issue. |
©2022 University of California
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.