Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

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Message 2096393 - Posted: 23 Mar 2022, 23:20:27 UTC

Reports just coming in now from an analysis of radar tracking have estimated that the plane hit the ground at between 1,000-1,100km/h, black boxes are only designed to survive an impact of 499km/h.
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Message 2096398 - Posted: 24 Mar 2022, 1:30:33 UTC - in response to Message 2096393.  

Reports just coming in now from an analysis of radar tracking have estimated that the plane hit the ground at between 1,000-1,100km/h, black boxes are only designed to survive an impact of 499km/h.
540knots.

You might think Vne could be found on the web, secret number. Vmo is 340knots IAS. The radar data would be TAS +/- wind. To convert pressure altitude and temperature are needed.
As the altitude wasn't that high, the airplane was well above Vmo and likely well above Vne. Very well built as it appeared to be largely in one piece.
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Message 2096452 - Posted: 24 Mar 2022, 16:08:18 UTC
Last modified: 24 Mar 2022, 16:15:49 UTC

Latest update:

China plane crash...
wrote:
... It is hoped the cockpit voice recorder, recovered intact, will yield clues. It was damaged on the outside but its internal records appeared to be fine, officials said. It has been sent to Beijing for its data to be analysed...

... aviation officials said there hadn't been any weather or other hazards endured by the flight on its route path. China Eastern said the Boeing 737-800 plane, less than seven years old, had also passed all pre-flight checks.

There had been three pilots, China Eastern officials disclosed. The captain had 6,709 hours flying experience, and the first and second officers had 31,769 hours and 556 hours respectively. "From what we know, the performance of the three pilots had been good and their family life relatively harmonious," the airline representative said.

Air traffic control had also been in regular communication with the pilots on board right until it entered its near nosedive descent from a cruising height...


The ADSB tracking plot in that article from FlightRadar24 is suggestive:



Does that show a recovery from a drastic first stall, to then stall again for a second time?


That looks very much like a profile that I've flown for a demonstration failed stall recovery (and to show off how stable the aircraft was). For my example, the control stick was pulled back and continuously held back against the endstop. You then get to experience some stomach sickening roller coaster type swoops until you either release the control stick or otherwise do something useful! My example was very definitely a demonstration with a very experienced instructor and we lost a mere 1000' for two swoops. (Good test for being properly strapped in!) ((NB: That was in a semi-acrobatic aircraft. Care needed to stay within spec!...))

For the 737 example... Was their deadly swoop caused by extreme (runaway?) trim for which the very experienced pilots couldn't recover?


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2096594 - Posted: 27 Mar 2022, 6:29:53 UTC

The data storage section of the 2nd black box has been recovered out of the ground, but whether either will be any good is yet to be determined.

Second 'black box' found in China Eastern plane crash.
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Message 2096940 - Posted: 1 Apr 2022, 20:01:14 UTC

People not equipment ...
https://simpleflying.com/british-pilot-falsifying-flying-records/
Just how common is it (falsification) in the transport world?
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Message 2096961 - Posted: 2 Apr 2022, 0:39:45 UTC
Last modified: 2 Apr 2022, 0:39:56 UTC

Cracked cockpit window on a Delta Airlines 757-232, flight 760 from Salt Lake City to Washington D.C. that did emergency landing in Denver.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10676269/Delta-pilots-land-jet-safely-cockpit-windshield-cracks.html
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Message 2097268 - Posted: 6 Apr 2022, 17:16:25 UTC

Air France Boeing 777 aborts landing at Paris-Charles de Gaulle airport, because the plane went nuts.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-06/air-france-landing-scare-prompts-french-probe-on-777-flight
A recording published on the site chronicles fraught moments when pilots struggled with controls.
On the recording, one of the pilots can be heard groaning and breathing heavily as cockpit alarms ring. “Wait! Stop Stop!” he said, before adding “I’ll call you back! I’ll call you back!”
A few moments later, a pilot said: “The airplane is pretty much going nuts.” The air traffic controller responded: “I’ve seen on the radar, it swayed to the left.”
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Message 2097274 - Posted: 6 Apr 2022, 18:33:51 UTC - in response to Message 2097268.  

Youtube audio from Control tower and pilots, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCNKhFOPqU French with English subtitles.
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Message 2097302 - Posted: 7 Apr 2022, 6:02:35 UTC

Juan Browne says GIGO, with the possibility of ground equipment interference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslSQB5mgyc
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Message 2097888 - Posted: 16 Apr 2022, 16:06:27 UTC - in response to Message 2097302.  

Juan Browne says GIGO, with the possibility of ground equipment interference.
Air France 11 B777-300 CDG 5 April 2022

Thanks for that.

Yes, Blancolirio does give a very good very clear and non-sensational report.

He's updated his comment on that incident: "UPDATE 8 April- Pilot Error- TO/GA hit 4 times by the pilots!"

However... I'm sure there is more to the story yet to unfold. There must have been some very high 'startle factor' or other effects for the pilots to act as though panicked...


One to follow up on...

Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2097889 - Posted: 16 Apr 2022, 16:20:09 UTC
Last modified: 16 Apr 2022, 16:32:07 UTC

For this month's round-up of Boeing profits:


Is Boeing ever to be 'trusted' to certify planes ever again?...

CNBC: Outgoing FAA chief Steve Dickson on Boeing Dreamliner issues and China Eastern Airlines crash


Meanwhile, has Boeing tripped over its own gaming of modern day certification safety to stay profitably cheaply (unsafely?) stuck in the past?

Maximus: FAA Warns Boeing The Max 10 Won't Be Certified This Year. Unless Congress Act's It Could Be Scrapped


And scarily for just this last month! Note that sadly, people have died...

Maximus: Boeing Planes Suffer 8 Major Incidents In Less Than 30 Days. Is There A Problem With Boeing Planes?


Blancolirio gives a very informative roundup of some of those 'incidents':

Air France 11 B777-300 CDG 5 April 2022 (Same link as in previous post. Included here for completeness.)

China Eastern Airlines #5735 UPDATE! 23 March

DHL 757-200 San Jose, Costa Rica 7 April 2022

Malaysia Airlines MH2664 737-800 Unreliable Airspeed 3 April 2022



My personal take on those incidents gives some big questions about how safely 'redundant' are those various critical flight control systems, and how the Boeing cockpit design seems to give the pilots a very hard time if anything goes wrong...

Is good robust safety really that expensive?

What cost are the lives of the passengers and crew and of people on the ground?...


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2097890 - Posted: 16 Apr 2022, 16:26:23 UTC
Last modified: 16 Apr 2022, 16:29:04 UTC

Would you trust Boeing to launch you into space?...


Another day, another glitch with NASA and SLS! Is this as bad as Boeing Starliner?


Note that the SLS and Starliner are "Human Rated" and hence supposedly are guaranteed to work fully, safely, every time, including the first time...

So, how many arms and legs is all that costing?!...

(For a very bad joke.)


Hopefully this is all silly enough that some good positive change can be made to make some good progress not too far in the future...

Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2097891 - Posted: 16 Apr 2022, 16:43:21 UTC - in response to Message 2097889.  

It looks very much like standards have fallen dramatically with Covid. Experience retired. Wet behind the ears in charge. Its not just in the airline industry, or transportation, but across the board.
Certified means you passed the test.
Competent means you demonstrated in the past you could do it.
Current means you are doing it frequently.
Currency is what is lost by Covid.
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Message 2097948 - Posted: 17 Apr 2022, 14:28:23 UTC
Last modified: 17 Apr 2022, 14:29:52 UTC

A little 'good' news for Boeing?...


FAA Says It's Ready To Lift Grounding Order On Boeing 777's With PW-4000 Engines
wrote:
In the wake of a series of engine explosions on Boeing 777-200 and 300 aircraft, after more than a year on the ground the FAA say's it is ready to lift the ban on these aircraft worldwide



... Except...

Are not those FAA (must do) directives what are required of a passenger aircraft design in the first place? That is, the present design has proven to be deficient...

Has Boeing developed a new business model whereby aircraft groundings have moved from the category "Unheard of!" to the new category of "Standard practice, profitably part of the business plan."?...


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2098521 - Posted: 27 Apr 2022, 19:42:06 UTC

Too many Boeing problems to list, you will just have to read it,
Boeing shares plunge on array of charges, 737 MAX target in doubt
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Message 2098668 - Posted: 30 Apr 2022, 11:12:39 UTC

More on the Air France 777 incident and all is not looking good for the pilots.

Air France pilots almost crash Boeing 777 in Paris amid struggle.

The pilots of an Air France flight from New York to Paris who struggled to control the plane before landing were engaged in a kind of tug of war – apparently unaware of each other’s inputs on the controls, according to a report.

The Boeing 777 with 177 passengers on-board was cleared to land at Charles de Gaulle Airport on April 5 when an air-traffic controller heard the pilots struggling as an alarm blared in the background, NY Post reports.

Dramatic audio captured one of the pilots exclaiming, “Stop! Stop!” and the captain told the tower the jetliner was “all over the place”.

In a preliminary report, France’s air-accident investigation agency said Thursday that the pilots “simultaneously made inputs on the controls” during the incident.

“The captain held the control column in a slightly nose-down position while the co-pilot made several, more pronounced, nose-up inputs,” the report said.

Under normal procedure, one pilot would say, “I have control” while the other would acknowledge the statement by replying, “You have control.”

It’s unclear what caused the Air France mishap.

The investigative agency classified the event as a “serious incident,” an industry term meaning it could have resulted in an accident, Reuters reported.

As with other aircraft, the Boeing 777’s control columns move in tandem with each, though only one pilot is usually expected to be actively using them to fly at any given time.

If opposing forces on the two columns pass a certain limit, the link between them is deactivated — or “desynchronised” — to prevent accidents in case one of them is jammed....
I bet that Air France's pilot training procedures will be under intense examination after that.
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Message 2098920 - Posted: 4 May 2022, 16:07:26 UTC

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Message 2098943 - Posted: 4 May 2022, 20:51:24 UTC - in response to Message 2098668.  
Last modified: 4 May 2022, 21:04:08 UTC

... I bet that Air France's pilot training procedures will be under intense examination after that.

Blancolirio gives a very good summary for that:


blancolirio - Air France 11 UPDATE BEA Preliminary Report


So... The plane behaved exactly as it should, throughout...

Sounds like BOTH pilots panicked and for a while forgot that the other pilot was there!...

More of a question is: Why?

Lack of "feel" for the aircraft? Pilot induced oscillation that continued to increase, unrecognized? Too little trust in the instruments and too much startle factor?...

Or are Boeing cockpits just a little too 'difficult'?


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2098945 - Posted: 4 May 2022, 20:59:38 UTC - in response to Message 2098920.  
Last modified: 4 May 2022, 21:02:16 UTC

Airbus has a pitch up problem sounds like Boeing.

Thanks for that one.

Indeed so... Except... To what extent?


All jets with such big under-slung engines have the convenience of easy maintenance but the compromise of revving up the engines causing the nose to push upwards.

For that Airbus example, that list adds up to pretty much the worst case scenario, regardless, which must still be handled.

Very good that Airbus have identified that and are proactively putting in a fix to keep the jobs of the pilots easy and less stressful.

Also note that Airbus have fully independent triple redundancy by design on the critical sensors needed to coordinate keeping the aircraft pitch safely controlled.


Shame Boeing had to wait for hundreds of people to be killed, and still procrastinated yet further, for yet more people to be killed, before reluctantly putting in place some partial fixes with incomplete redundancy. All just to keep the pilots hot in their hot seat?

Quite a different approach...


All just my uneducated humble personal observations as always,

Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2098946 - Posted: 4 May 2022, 21:00:33 UTC

Considering how airlines around the world these days are complaining about staff shortages I wonder if fatigue was an issue.
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Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)


 
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