Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 . . . 38 · Next

AuthorMessage
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24881
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2058660 - Posted: 8 Oct 2020, 16:38:06 UTC - in response to Message 2058657.  

Until the next 737-Max falls out of the sky.
ID: 2058660 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30698
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2058668 - Posted: 8 Oct 2020, 19:11:55 UTC - in response to Message 2058657.  

Really all just a game to humor the FAA and Boeing towards something a little less deadly?

Profit first, profit last, profit forever. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness/
Fiduciary duty to the shareholder, if the cost of fixing it is more than the cost of the lawsuits, don't fix it.
ID: 2058668 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20389
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2061435 - Posted: 15 Nov 2020, 2:35:29 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2020, 2:36:01 UTC

Boeing is curiously keeping very quiet in the news recently... All overshadowed by Coronavirus and Trumped by the ongoing Trumpisms?...


Briefly:


Proposed US fix for Boeing 737 Max software woes does not address Ethiopian crash scenario, UK pilot union warns
wrote:
The British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has told American aviation regulators that the Boeing 737 Max needs better fixes for its infamous MCAS software, warning that a plane crash which killed 149 people could happen again...

... The NPRM, published here, proposes various fixes to the 737 Max design, its software and procedures for pilots to follow in the event of a problem. One of those procedures includes disabling the airliner's automatic trim system, operated by MCAS when the software kicks in, and having the two pilots use a manual backup trim wheel instead of the aircraft's powerful electric motors.

BALPA said: "Requiring both crew members to turn the trim wheel simultaneously in a non-normal scenario is extremely undesirable and goes against all philosophies...

... Bootnote

The 737 Max will be known as the 737-7, 737-8 and 737-9. In Ryanair's case it will be known as the 737-8200...

International Air Transport Association aeroplane type codes will be B37M, B38M and B39M should you want to avoid booking a flight on one.



Pilot unions, crash families seek changes to Boeing 737 MAX training
wrote:
Pilot unions and families of those killed in a crash of Boeing’s 737 MAX are asking for revisions to proposed new training for the grounded jetliner.

The Federal Aviation Administration’s proposed new training module and emergency checklists for the MAX are “clunky at best” and should be streamlined, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association said in comments filed with the FAA before Monday’s deadline.

A group of dozens of family members and friends of the 157 people who died on an Ethiopian Airlines crash on March 10, 2019, go further, seeking additional design changes and publication of a more detailed training outline.

“The FAA’s proposed update to the 737 Max pilot training requirements is inadequate to rectify Boeing’s history of 737 Max-related failures and insufficient to prepare pilots to safely fly the airplane,” the family group said in its comments, also posted on Monday...



Boeing 737 MAX judged safe to fly by Europe’s aviation regulator
wrote:
Europe’s top aviation regulator said he’s satisfied that changes to Boeing’s 737 Max have made the plane safe enough to return to the region’s skies before 2020 is out, even as a further upgrade his agency demanded won’t be ready for up to two years...

... Ky said the synthetic sensor would simplify the job of pilots when one or both of the mechanical angle-of-attack sensors on the Max fails. The device, which monitors whether a plane is pointed up or down relative to the oncoming air, malfunctioned in both crashes — the first off the coast of Indonesia in October 2018 and the second one, five months later, in Ethiopia. ... “We think that it is overall a good development which will increase the level of safety,” Ky said. [BUT] “It’s not available now..."




All on a wobbly wing and a prayer all in hope of 'nothing going wrong'?

Stay safe folks!
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2061435 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19103
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2061677 - Posted: 18 Nov 2020, 17:22:42 UTC

U.S. ends Boeing 737 MAX flight ban after crash probes
WASHINGTON/SEATTLE (Reuters) - Boeing Co won approval on Wednesday from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration to fly its 737 MAX jet again after two fatal crashes that triggered two years of regulatory scrutiny and corporate upheaval.
ID: 2061677 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24881
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2061681 - Posted: 18 Nov 2020, 18:22:55 UTC - in response to Message 2061677.  

“We have implemented a series of meaningful changes to strengthen the safety practices and culture of our company,” Dave Calhoun told employees in a letter.
Does that include a rigorous drug policy?
ID: 2061681 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20389
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2061719 - Posted: 19 Nov 2020, 3:05:47 UTC - in response to Message 2061677.  
Last modified: 19 Nov 2020, 3:20:09 UTC

From my personal uneducated most ignorant and humbly inadequate understanding...

Now we have, IIRC, for the required training for the newly revamped B737-MAX (or whatever it is called anew):

  • You have a sudden death situation.
  • Your only chance for recovery is to remember and act upon at least EIGHT memory items, in sequence, no conferring;
  • Meanwhile #1: You may feel a reduction in gravity and butterflies in your stomach, and an Arnold Schwarzenegger gut wrenching pull on the control column;
  • Meanwhile #2: You must flawlessly complete your memory mission, without error or fail, first time successfully, whilst simultaneously suffering: multiple flashing lights; a loud and strong trembling vibration of the control stick vibrator stall alarm for flying too slowly; and a loud klaxon in your ears for flying far too fast indicating the aircraft is breaking apart (all confusingly contradictory and all at the same time);
  • Meanwhile #3: Other emergency announcements will be loudly given to further try to get you to fumble your memory sequence;
  • Meanwhile #4: You have only miserably few seconds to successfully complete your task;
  • Meanwhile #5: Up to 210 lives singularly depend upon you for their lives, you only have the one chance;
  • Good luck and Valhalla awaits you.




What could possibly go wrong?

All in our deadly greedy world...

Stay safe!
Martin


See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2061719 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30698
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2061727 - Posted: 19 Nov 2020, 6:44:01 UTC - in response to Message 2061718.  

Remember millions of eyeballs have looked at the flight laws, there can't be any flaws in them.

Memory items only go so far. After all when the top of you cabin rips off at altitude from a metal corrosion, you need a two hour long checklist to read and work through all possibilities before you know you are screwed.

Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate = fly the plane first, don't run into a mountain, then consider getting out a checklist

Or for car people on the high speed vehicle roadway a tire blows, so find the owners manual and look in the table of contents and the index for the procedure to follow.
ID: 2061727 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 22232
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2061731 - Posted: 19 Nov 2020, 8:10:04 UTC - in response to Message 2061718.  

I think you overstate some of the steps.
There are about 8 memory items, but most only apply to one situation. For example "engine fire", which is one memory item, runaway stabiliser trim is another, different, memory item. Each of these items is only a small number of steps to enable you to get the aircraft into control, and not all of the steps take immediate effect - for example turning the auto-throttle switch off will stop the throttles moving, allowing the flight crew to take control of the throttles without the auto-throttle then pushing them back to where they were (One, my ask why this is the case - many years ago there was an incident in which an aircraft flying on auto throttle had one throttle closed accidentally and the flight crew didn't notice until they got into a bad situation with the aircraft crabbing....).
It is also worth knowing that a number of these memory items all start with the same step "Turn the auto-pilot OFF" and monitor the situation for a short period of time, allowing the flight crew a few seconds to better understand what's wrong and which of the memory items to continue with. For example turning the auto pilot off in the case of runaway trim may stop the runaway trim because that system was the root, but if the trim wheels continue spinning turn auto-trim off and do it manually.
In (almost) all the memory items the final line can be translated as "Leave everything OFF that you've turned OFF and fly the plane manually, then when you get to the ground (either by finishing the flight, diverting, or returning) report the fault and hand the plane over to engineering to investigate and cure.
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2061731 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 22232
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2061739 - Posted: 19 Nov 2020, 9:21:26 UTC - in response to Message 2061731.  

Not so much a reply, more additional information, which may shed some light on the comments made by Martin & I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhSVtLXtIrw
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2061739 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24881
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2062155 - Posted: 24 Nov 2020, 17:29:47 UTC
Last modified: 24 Nov 2020, 17:30:23 UTC

Says it all really!
Mr Pierson says he told the head of the 737 programme, Scott Campbell, that he had seen operations in the military shut down over less substantial safety issues.
“The military isn’t a profit-making organisation,” Mr Campbell allegedly replied.
$$$-Russian Roulette-$$$
ID: 2062155 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30698
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2062172 - Posted: 25 Nov 2020, 1:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 2062155.  

Says it all really!
Mr Pierson says he told the head of the 737 programme, Scott Campbell, that he had seen operations in the military shut down over less substantial safety issues.
“The military isn’t a profit-making organisation,” Mr Campbell allegedly replied.
$$$-Russian Roulette-$$$

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/
The tale of the Pinto is burned deep into American pop culture at this point: Company builds car, car has terrible problem, company ignores it, people die. It's a bit more complicated than that, though.
ID: 2062172 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 22232
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2062190 - Posted: 25 Nov 2020, 15:32:22 UTC

EASA has now published its requirements to allow the b737 MAX to return to the skies:
https://mentourpilot.com/max-easa-list-of-required-changes-published/?fbclid=IwAR1pdgYwT7mG8bx5ySyZp-3lJJ5QeqhzHKmh5mYNJQLVLRGbuuYG4ddla1E
In the main they are essentially the same as those required by the FAA with a few detailed variations.
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2062190 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24881
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2062209 - Posted: 25 Nov 2020, 21:26:08 UTC

I bet the Boeing board are praying that the coronavirus vaccines are highly effective, if not...
ID: 2062209 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30698
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2062226 - Posted: 26 Nov 2020, 1:24:21 UTC - in response to Message 2062209.  

I bet the Boeing board are praying that the coronavirus vaccines are highly effective, if not...
They won't put seats in and just cargo rails.
ID: 2062226 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19103
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2062228 - Posted: 26 Nov 2020, 1:38:46 UTC - in response to Message 2062226.  

I bet the Boeing board are praying that the coronavirus vaccines are highly effective, if not...
They won't put seats in and just cargo rails.

More like, not doing any internal fitting, as the airlines want delivery delayed.
ID: 2062228 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 30698
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2062236 - Posted: 26 Nov 2020, 4:41:57 UTC - in response to Message 2062228.  

I bet the Boeing board are praying that the coronavirus vaccines are highly effective, if not...
They won't put seats in and just cargo rails.

More like, not doing any internal fitting, as the airlines want delivery delayed.
Self loading cargo carriers want delays, the forklift cargo carriers not so much.
ID: 2062236 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19103
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2062790 - Posted: 2 Dec 2020, 23:53:00 UTC

Boeing's upgraded 737 MAX completes first flight with media onboard
DALLAS (Reuters) - Boeing Co’s 737 MAX staged its first post-grounding flight with media on board on Wednesday, as carriers seek to demonstrate to passengers that the redesigned jet is safe after a 20-month safety ban.

In another display of confidence, European budget airline Ryanair was set to place a hefty order for up to 75 additional 737 MAX jets, industry sources said.

Wednesday’s American Airlines 737 MAX flight was a 45-minute hop from Dallas, Texas, to Tulsa, Oklahoma. It comes weeks before the first commercial passenger flight on Dec. 29, and is part of a public relations effort to allay any concerns about the aircraft.
ID: 2062790 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 19103
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2063280 - Posted: 9 Dec 2020, 19:43:52 UTC

Boeing 737 Max back in air 2 years after grounded by crashes
RIO DE JANEIRO (AP) — Commercial flights with Boeing 737 Max jetliners resumed Wednesday for the first time since they were grounded worldwide following two deadly accidents nearly two years ago.
Brazil’s Gol Airlines became the first in the world to return the planes to its active fleet, using a 737 MAX 8 on a flight from Sao Paulo to Porto Alegre, according to flightradar24.com.
ID: 2063280 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 20389
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2063755 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 23:31:56 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2020, 23:42:26 UTC

Boeing hits the safety news again:


US aviation regulator issues safety bulletins over flaws in software updates for Boeing 747, 777, 787 airliners
wrote:
Autothrottle [uncommanded] cuts [engines] to idle and flight computers fail after latest updates, warns FAA

Software updates to Boeing's Jumbo Jet, Dreamliner, and 777 introduced flaws that degraded flight safety and caused the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to publish warnings to aviators.

Recent updates to the Boeing 777 and 787 autothrottle have changed how the safety-critical systems operated, prompting a warning from the FAA to airlines...

... With questions hanging over Boeing's software development practices ever since the crashes of two 737 Max airliners that killed nearly 350 people, the latest two SAIBs from the FAA will leave members of the public raising their eyebrows...



Having the flight controls do unexpected things during the critical seconds of landing/takeoff sounds very unhealthy to me, even if only for increasing the risk of heart failure and grey hairs for the pilots' stress levels...

One comment sums up the latest Boeing software glitch aptly for an all-too-likely real life scenario:

https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/12/16/boeing_software_updates_faa_warning/#c_4165387 wrote:
... In this case, it was poor design, poor training and/or unintended consequences.

Boeing added a feature which on touch-down disables the Go-Around button - and this worked exactly as designed. However the pilots expected (not unreasonably) that pressing the Go-Around button will make the plane perform a Go-Around, just like they've practiced dozens of times in the simulator.

In this case, although the thrust was unexpectedly cancelled [by the new software bug], the pilots were still able to lift the nose and retract the undercarriage. 12 seconds later they realised the problem and manually applied thrust - but it was too late.



Here's hoping that passengers and crew don't hit the ground too hard this time round.

All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2063755 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Sirius B Project Donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 26 Dec 00
Posts: 24881
Credit: 3,081,182
RAC: 7
Ireland
Message 2063757 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 23:38:30 UTC - in response to Message 2063755.  

Their executives don't care. With over 6 billion peasants on the planet, nobody will miss a few but they will miss their bonuses.
ID: 2063757 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 . . . 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 · 9 . . . 38 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)


 
©2024 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.