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Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30974 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Not sure how our chief antagonist missed this: https://apnews.com/article/osprey-crash-clutch-grounded-accidents-explainer-5d81b361e3d1e43402f6727341515668 wrote: Materiel strength was the subject of a whistleblower lawsuit that Boeing settled with the Justice Department in September for $8.1 million. Two former Boeing V-22 composites fabricators had come forward with allegations that Boeing was falsifying records certifying that it had performed the testing necessary to ensure it maintained uniform temperatures required to ensure the Osprey’s composite parts were strengthened according to DOD specifications. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36584 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
And I cant's see their "tilt rotor" replacement (as opposed to the Osprey's "tilt wing") being any better either as it's more complicated yet again. I'm not that keen on choppers, but at least they have a chance of auto-rotating down (if the blades and steering parts are there still). |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Ouch! A multiple deadly Ouch! Note from that article: ... on Wednesday, the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps grounded all Ospreys after a preliminary investigation of last week’s crash indicated that a materiel failure — that something went wrong with the aircraft — and not a mistake by the crew led to the deaths. Boeing's profits first and the consequences be damned? Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And I'm reminded that Boeings's latest 'troubled' big project, their "Starliner", has gone quiet for an awful long time... Were all of the problems with the flammable tape, sticky valves, and sub-spec parachute straps, all cleared and fully tested and proved?... Fly safely?? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Ooooer... I posted too soon: NASA Invites Media to First Astronaut Launch Aboard Boeing’s Starliner wrote: ... launch of NASA’s Boeing Crew Flight Test to the International Space Station. The mission will be the company’s first Starliner spacecraft mission with crew. Fly safe! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36584 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Fly safe!We can only hope that they do. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19359 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
I doubt this will be enough to change the culture at Renton. Boeing ousts head of 737 jetliner program weeks after panel blowout on a flight over Oregon SEATTLE (AP) — Boeing said Wednesday that the head of its 737 jetliner program is leaving the company in an executive shake-up weeks after a door panel blew out on a flight over Oregon, renewing questions about safety at the company. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
A Golden retirement, excuses, and scapegoating, anything rather than any real fixes?... Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1122 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
In other economic sectors, it is common for experts and managers to move from one company to a competitor or to be headhunted by them. (yes, trade secrets, etc.). Isn't there something like that in the aviation industry? So that someone brings experience from similar processes or a different company culture. Or is there a Boeing bubble and an Airbus bubble without contacts between each other? Or maybe from military aircraft companies where aircraft are also built in high throughput production lines? |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21099 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
More "Ouch"... Ryanair says aircraft problems could push summer fares up 10% wrote: Airline may have to trim schedules as it awaits delayed delivery of new Boeing Max 737-8200s... So... Those little extras of hidden rags and spanners cost a whopping "10% extra"?! ... But... What else is lurking under those floorboards?... (As if your life doesn't depend on such 'small' things?...!...) Fly safe?... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22495 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Having one chunk of your fleet bing grounded for days or weeks costs a fair bit, especially if that grounding also requires remedial work to be done before each aircraft can return to service. Add to that fares are based on having a particular fleet of aircraft being available. Most airlines replace their aircraft on a planned date, and assume that the replacement will be more economic to operate - and the cost of operation isn't just about fuel use, but in many places there are surcharges for noise and other environmental items, which are often higher on older aircraft. So with the lower delivery rate from Boeing into the airlines (either by leasing or airline purchase) many airlines are having to operate aircraft beyond the planned replacement date. Thus airlines may not have all the seats they want to sell, thus will push the price on those they have, each seat costs more per passenger-mile to operate, there are higher airport charges due to the "less friendly" aircraft having to be used. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1122 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
Ryanair says aircraft problems could push summer fares up 10% wrote: Airline may have to trim schedules as it awaits delayed delivery of new Boeing Max 737-8200s...They sell tickets for planes they don't even have yet? I guess that's called 'short selling'. Well there's the wet-lease market for such imbalances. But for 'unknown reasons' the available single-aisle aircraft for wet-leasing are scarce worldwide. That's maybe a profitable future business for Boeing's management too. They have, so to speak, enormous leverage to control prices in the wet-lease market. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30974 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Perhaps the shortage (pilots and planes) will push prices high enough that the herds will thin and only those who would wear their Sunday best will be able to get a ticket. Not all things are as bad as they seem at first blush. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22495 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Yes they haven't got them today, but they were due to be in service by the time they were required for a particular flight, bearing in mind that some of the flights that are on sale today are for flights in several months time. As far as airlines are concerned there are two things you don't want - new aircraft sitting around for several months waiting for their maiden service flight, and the new aircraft that was due to fly today full of passengers sitting in the assembly shop on the other side of the world. Wet lease, or dry lease, to cover late deliveries are very expensive, and are really only ever considered when there is no alternative. Using a short-lease aircraft (wet or dry) can easily double (if not more) the cost of an individual flight. Just now all large B737 operators with outstanding orders will be trying to hire aircraft to cover these late deliveries, and so those with aircraft available for lease/hire will increase the cost of such leases because of demand. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22495 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Some hope as the average sun, sea and sangria(*) really NEED their two weeks of sun, sea and sangria every year or they really won't be having a "holiday" this year. A large chunk of Ryan Air's summer travel is ferrying said people between the UK and the Mediterranean coast for their annual dose of too much sun, too much sea and too much sangria. (*) other words starting with "s" may be more applicable ..... Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22495 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
An interesting review of the state of play within Boeing's safety management system~ https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/Sec103_ExpertPanelReview_Report_Final.pdf The bullet point at the top of page 5 contains this statement: However, the Boeing SMS procedures are not structured in a way that ensures all employees understand their role in the company’s SMS. The procedures and training are complex and in a constant state of change, creating employee confusion especially among different work sites and employee groups. I never like seeing "complex", "constant change" & "confusion" in the executive summary of a report on a company's SMS as these words are often indicative of a poor safety culture that is being patched to cover the most recent set of holes. With a good SMS then stability is required, so that those actually working to the SMS know what they are required to do and so are more likely to follow the procedures correctly. That said, when an SMS is in a mess there is need for a "halt and restart", and a whole new set of simplified procedures implemented - and this does mean there will be disruption to the output flow while staff at all levels are re-trained, but better that pause than yet another near/fatal incident due to the messy SMS. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1122 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
That said, when an SMS is in a mess there is need for a "halt and restart", and a whole new set of simplified procedures implemented - and this does mean there will be disruption to the output flow while staff at all levels are re-trained, but better that pause than yet another near/fatal incident due to the messy SMS.People at Boeing certainly know how to "halt and restart" their procedures. But halting production costs a lot of money and will further upset major customers who might are forced to change their fleet policy. For example the narrowbody fleet of United Airlines is quite old on average. Three quarters are B737/B757, one quarter is A320series. Boeing won't be able to delay deliveries to customers like that for much longer. A vicious circle. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22495 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Yes, halting and restarting production is not a cheap option, but, sadly, when things are in a real mess it can be the only way out of the hole. But then having to stop production as a result of a crash caused by poor workmanship is even more expensive. The United airframe age problem is not uncommon, and they currently have a plan in place to reduce the average airframe age by buying/leasing new airframes. I don't know what the split between Airbus & Boeing products is, but each manufacturer will have allocated a number of airframes each month (or year) so they can satisfy their share in United's overall plan. These days the lead-time from ordering an new aircraft is measured in years, so even if United decided today to cancel all their outstanding Boeing airframes and substitute them with Airbus airframes then "new" orders on Airbus would go to the back of the queue, and United's fleet would get older. As you say, if Boeing's recent problems (from which they appear to have no escape plan) may well force United (and other airlines) to look at their future buying plans and re-balance them in favour of Airbus. At least United, with their heterogenous fleet and, presumably options on both Airbus & Boeing, can move the Airbus options to orders and the Boeing options to cancelled; unlike some other airlines who have homogenous Boeing fleets don't have that path available, a substantial delay in the delivery of new Boeing to these airlines could mean they would be faced with increased operating costs, and not being able to replace ageing aircraft in line with their plans. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1122 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
That would mean that the genius Michael O'Leary for the first time in three decades overlooked a risk in his long-term strategy to wipe out all (smaller) continental European airlines without overseas connections: Ryanair's homogenous fleet of hundreds of 737-800 and Max 8-200. |
Dr Who Fan Send message Joined: 8 Jan 01 Posts: 3331 Credit: 715,342 RAC: 4 |
Will push come to shove and force Boeing to fix all the problems or will this be just another slapping on the cheek for them? Boeing given 90 days by FAA to come up with a plan to improve safety and quality of manufacturing The Federal Aviation Administration is giving Boeing 90 days to come up with a plan to fix quality problems and meet safety standards for building new planes. |
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