Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

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Message 2075605 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 0:49:30 UTC - in response to Message 2075542.  

Well, here is the thing, the screw/nut combo is the bad one on the Boeing and the rivet is the good one.

I'm going to take a guess that the parts are painted. I'm also going to guess that the inside of the holes is not painted. So when the rivet is set the walls expand in the hole and make contact. Not a way I'd say is good practice, but apparently it is how the aircraft was certified.

I'm much rather see a screw and pem nut where the panel under the screw is never painted.
Of course a bonding strap is the ideal method.

I'd guess your unpainted rivet guess is the 'hidden secret' that Boeing were relying upon to keep the aircraft flying.

Doubt it is a secret. I'm sure there is an FAA standards document from the '50s that indicates that is the method to use. And you know that the Boeing lawyers made sure that their design followed those standards to the letter. Remember this is an aircraft of the '50s. It has to be made to 1950's standards or it would need a new type certificate.

But, I have two words to say on the earthing discussion: "Ground Loop"
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Message 2075613 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 3:08:21 UTC - in response to Message 2075605.  

But, I have two words to say on the earthing discussion: "Ground Loop"

Did you really 'have to'.

The rules are followed to the letter on electrical grounding, and then the electronics people follow the rules on fitting connectors on shielded cables and what do you get?
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Message 2075622 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 4:08:25 UTC - in response to Message 2075613.  

But, I have two words to say on the earthing discussion: "Ground Loop"

Did you really 'have to'.

The rules are followed to the letter on electrical grounding, and then the electronics people follow the rules on fitting connectors on shielded cables and what do you get?

Had to have two words too.

Large power currents on shields and signal ground leads. Always a good thing!
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Message 2075653 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 13:38:52 UTC - in response to Message 2075622.  
Last modified: 12 May 2021, 15:10:19 UTC

Large power currents on shields and signal ground leads.

Hence there is the good design practice of ensuring that there is guaranteed and testable ground bonding (and that can be to multiple points that are all electrically bonded together,) to ensure that the ground reference voltage stays clamped at zero Volts for all the equipment.

Anything inferior to that causes very unexpected 'strange' problems as implied by your example.


For audio equipment for incorrect grounding, you might only get the annoyance of the sound of mains hum. Whereas for critical electrical/electronic control equipment such as on an aircraft, with bad electrical grounding you can very possibly die.


Also note that good electrical grounding is vital for the aircraft equipment (and hence the aircraft) to survive a lightning strike...


Fly safe folks!
Martin

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Message 2075660 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 13:55:26 UTC

Capitalists and profit makers are only interested in profit. They don't care about if a few thousand dies from aircraft accidents, even if that would happen on a regular basis.
That's why I stopped flying many years ago, and will not do it again, until all the criminal capitalists and profit makers are all behind bars for the rest of their criminal lives,
and manufacturing of aircrafts is under total control of sane people and organizations, and not criminal profit making mafia syndicates, and insane criminals.

Down on the ground, in any of these capitalists and profit makers unsafe cars, at least I have some control over how their unsafe cars behaves.
There's really too few real criminals in prison......
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Message 2075663 - Posted: 12 May 2021, 14:04:49 UTC - in response to Message 2075660.  

There's really too few real criminals in prison......
They're in power instead.
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Message 2075898 - Posted: 15 May 2021, 9:40:38 UTC

U.S. requires inspections for wire failure on Boeing 737 Classic planes
Reuters - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said on Friday it was requiring U.S. operators of 143 Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 Classic series airplanes to check for possible wire failures stemming from an investigation into an Indonesia crash in January.

The 737 Classic is an older generation of planes more than two decades old. The FAA said the issue affected 1,041 737-300, -400 and -500 Classic series airplanes worldwide, but many are currently out of service, because of COVID-19 or other issues.

The FAA is issuing an airworthiness directive for operators to verify that the flap synchro wire, which plays a role in the operation of the aircraft’s auto-throttle system, is securely connected to a safety sensor.

The wire failure could go undetected by the auto-throttle computer on affected airplanes and pose a safety risk.

The FAA is requiring some speedier checks than had been suggested by Boeing, which said late on Friday that it was "engaged in ongoing efforts to introduce safety and performance improvements across the fleet."

The newer 737 MAX and 737 NG are unaffected by the directive.
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Message 2076763 - Posted: 28 May 2021, 1:49:47 UTC

Boeing to pay $17 million to settle plane production issues
AP - Federal officials say Boeing will pay at least $17 million and take steps to fix production problems on its 737 jets, including the Max.

The Federal Aviation Administration said Thursday that the settlement covers the installation of unapproved sensors and other parts on some Boeing 737 NG and 737 Max planes built between 2015 and 2019.

The settlement, while not a large sum for Boeing — the company had $15 billion in revenue in 2020, a down year — is the latest black eye for the iconic American manufacturer. Boeing is still struggling to recover from two deadly crashes that led to a long grounding of Max jets worldwide and other problems that have plagued the Max and other aircraft models.

The FAA said Boeing will pay the $17 million civil penalty within 30 days and could be hit with about $10 million in additional fines if it fails to take steps including preventing the use of unapproved parts. The FAA said Boeing also must analyze whether the company and its suppliers are ready to safely raise production rates for the 737.
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Message 2076767 - Posted: 28 May 2021, 8:30:20 UTC - in response to Message 2076763.  
Last modified: 28 May 2021, 8:30:53 UTC

Thanks for that.

That article lists a very scary litany of faults covering hundreds of planes.

Yet their share price rose 4%?!...

Personally, I very much doubt they have "resolved all production 'issues'" safely, regardless of whatever placatory words their PR spokesperson utters...


Fly safe folks!
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Message 2076779 - Posted: 28 May 2021, 14:12:06 UTC - in response to Message 2076767.  

Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit
Yet their share price rose 4%?!...
https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-stock-top-737-customer-southwest-needs-hundreds-more-planes/
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Message 2076792 - Posted: 28 May 2021, 17:04:11 UTC - in response to Message 2076779.  

Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit
Yet their share price rose 4%?!...
https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-stock-top-737-customer-southwest-needs-hundreds-more-planes/

Thanks for that. Crazy stuff...

I wonder if there are any clauses in the the purchase for the Boeing execs to personally compensate all those affected for any further corner cutting catastrophes?


Then the question is what will kill more passengers: The Boeing 737 or the facilitated increase in the spread of COVID?

My personal jaundiced guess is that there will be no effective mitigation added to the aircraft aircon... (Such as increased airflow or UV sterilization in the air ducts...)


Fly safe?
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Message 2076796 - Posted: 28 May 2021, 17:44:13 UTC - in response to Message 2076779.  
Last modified: 28 May 2021, 17:44:41 UTC

Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit
Yet their share price rose 4%?!...
https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-stock-top-737-customer-southwest-needs-hundreds-more-planes/

Probably because the person setting the fine didn't understand the difference between Millions and Billions, and didn't put in the final three zero's.
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Message 2076852 - Posted: 29 May 2021, 15:53:56 UTC - in response to Message 2076796.  

Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit
Yet their share price rose 4%?!...
https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-stock-top-737-customer-southwest-needs-hundreds-more-planes/

Probably because the person setting the fine didn't understand the difference between Millions and Billions, and didn't put in the final three zero's.

You assume too much. The person who didn't understand is the legislator who wrote the law that sets the maximum fine at a number that would make a natural person bankrupt but isn't even pocket change for a publicly traded company.
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Message 2077571 - Posted: 9 Jun 2021, 0:37:39 UTC
Last modified: 9 Jun 2021, 0:41:50 UTC

Boeing stays in the news...


Boeing Charged Japan 1,500% Markup on Part, Air Force Says
wrote:
Boeing Co. charged the Japanese government an “excessive” price for some spare parts for its refueling tanker plane, as much as 16 times more than the U.S. Air Force paid for its latest versions, according to a service assessment...

... From November 2019 until March of this year, the U.S. Air Force tried, without success, to “secure adequate pricing information” from Boeing to determine whether the price for the lights and other parts in the package was fair and reasonable under federal regulations, according to the summary. “The Air Force was unable to determine that approximately $10 million of the total contract price was fair and reasonable primarily due to the lack of information to support cost or price analysis...

... Despite the misgivings about the price of the lights and overall contract, “after nearly 18 months of requests for information to support negotiations,” Air Force Major General Cameron Holt, deputy assistant secretary for contracting, “determined it was in the best interest of the government” to award the eventual $79.4 million contract in April. According to the summary, the decision was made “to meet Japan’s need for spare parts by the expected delivery date..."

... The service is also expediting a new contract ... “to compete future KC-46 spares to the maximum extent available in order to improve future contract pricing through competition,”...

Boeing's Latest 737 MAX Crisis Eases
wrote:
The aircraft manufacturer is resuming 737 MAX deliveries after the latest pause, but Boeing isn't out of the woods yet...

... Alas, within a few months, Boeing ran into new problems with its most popular jet, forcing it to pause 737 MAX deliveries in early April. Customers had to pull more than 100 jets from service, too.

Fortunately, Boeing has now resumed 737 MAX deliveries...

... The 737 MAX's latest problem stemmed from a trivial change to the manufacturing process for "two cabinets or racks that hold electronic equipment on the MAX flight deck," ... A decision to apply primer after holes were fully drilled -- rather than before -- impeded the racks' ability to serve as an electrical grounding path...

... the electrical issue could have had catastrophic consequences under certain conditions (such as a lightning strike)...

... The FAA signed off on the company's solution on May 13. That allowed Boeing to begin fixing the roughly 350 affected 737 MAX jets in its inventory and to issue a service bulletin to its airline customers so that they could make the same repairs...

... To fix the latest 737 MAX defect, mechanics are adding new grounding wires to ensure that the electronics racks remain properly grounded. It's a fairly quick and inexpensive fix.

Yet while Boeing's direct costs should be negligible, the aircraft manufacturer may have just added to its customer compensation bill. For example, customers such as American Airlines were forced to pull large portions of their 737 MAX fleets from service with little warning, adding to their costs...

... Until Boeing fixes its operations and engineering and makes it through a year or two with no big surprises, investors should probably invest their hard-earned money elsewhere.

The $15 billion jet dilemma facing Boeing’s CEO
wrote:
Boeing Co CEO Dave Calhoun faces a multibillion-dollar dilemma over how to rebuild sales...

... Such an upgrade might cost Airbus some $2-3 billion, but far less than the $15 billion Boeing would spend on a new plane...

... Boeing has amassed a mountain of debt and burned $20 billion in cash lurching from crisis to crisis. "It's a different world," one insider said. "How could you possibly be thinking about a new airplane?"...

... “If they trust the MAX with the pent-up demand they see for single-aisle then I don’t see why they would be in a hurry to replace the MAX. If they are in a different situation they might come to other conclusions,”...


From my personal view and perspective, greedily cutting corners and inglorious price gouging has deadly expensive consequences.

How strong is the incentive for airline operators to use non-Boeing (and non-certified) parts for the sake of silly prices?...

How many planes for how long have been flying without adequate protection for the electrical equipment for the sake of proper robust design and manufacture and quality assurance checking?...

Is Boeing going to leap into another 737MAX-style panic development on-the-cheap to compete?...



Fly safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2077577 - Posted: 9 Jun 2021, 1:08:08 UTC - in response to Message 2077571.  

... The 737 MAX's latest problem stemmed from a trivial change to the manufacturing process for "two cabinets or racks that hold electronic equipment on the MAX flight deck," ... A decision to apply primer after holes were fully drilled -- rather than before -- impeded the racks' ability to serve as an electrical grounding path...

WHAT.
trivial!!!!
There are lots of Boeing people that do NOT understand grounding paths if they think it is trivial.

There is nothing wrong in painting the holes after drilling, because, you should NEVER rely on that path to ground. Electronic cabinet racks are frequently mounted on anti-vibration mounts especially when in machines that vibrate. They are made with a big block of rubber, never known to be a conductor of electricity.
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Message 2077590 - Posted: 9 Jun 2021, 5:11:21 UTC - in response to Message 2077577.  

... The 737 MAX's latest problem stemmed from a trivial change to the manufacturing process for "two cabinets or racks that hold electronic equipment on the MAX flight deck," ... A decision to apply primer after holes were fully drilled -- rather than before -- impeded the racks' ability to serve as an electrical grounding path...

WHAT.
trivial!!!!
There are lots of Boeing people that do NOT understand grounding paths if they think it is trivial.

There is nothing wrong in painting the holes after drilling, because, you should NEVER rely on that path to ground. Electronic cabinet racks are frequently mounted on anti-vibration mounts especially when in machines that vibrate. They are made with a big block of rubber, never known to be a conductor of electricity.
Strap from fuselage to rack rail to bypass that vibration mount.

Engineer #1 every pound in excess weight costs the customer $10,000.00 in jet fuel over the life of the plane, strip excess weight every place you can.
Engineer #2 every screw/rivet hole that isn't filled with primer is the start of a corrosion problem
Engineer #3 as long as the rivet holes don't have primer we can ground through the rack and not have a separate grounding strap saving a pound for each piece of equipment.
Worker #1 We are out of rivets and sales is screaming to meet a deadline, no reason we can't use a nut, bolt and safety wire, we have lots of them.

Every single one of them is absolutely correct. Every single one of them is absolutely wrong. This is how the Swiss cheese aligns.
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Message 2077602 - Posted: 9 Jun 2021, 14:54:32 UTC - in response to Message 2077577.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2021, 15:00:52 UTC

WHAT.
trivial!!!!
There are lots of Boeing people that do NOT understand grounding paths if they think it is trivial...

And there's the deadly point...

The assembly actions to cause a deadly fault in that example of fragile design/implementation are trivial, yet, as we know, the consequences are deadly.

All exacerbated by cheaply deskilling the workforce so that the pressured harassed abused overworked zombies putting the pieces together use no thought processes to check what they are doing.

Worse still, for this example, using the rivet fixing as a 'sneaky' grounding path is hidden secret knowledge that noone else will see or know about... Until disaster is caused.


Which is where for that example, such practices must be regulated against and enforced at the design stage. Hence, equipment must be explicitly designed in with grounding that is explicitly marked and is testable. Anything less is a design and manufacture trap waiting to kill.

However... Hopes of ignorantly greedy profit falsely cuts the corners into a disaster...

This is NOT rocket science either!


For this example, Boeing and the passengers and crew flying on those hundreds of impacted planes have been very 'lucky'...


Fly safe folks?
Martin
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Message 2077603 - Posted: 9 Jun 2021, 15:03:50 UTC - in response to Message 2077602.  

... For this example, Boeing and the passengers and crew flying on those hundreds of impacted planes have been very 'lucky'...

Can those people sue Boeing for having had their lives negligently endangered?


Fly safe folks?
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Message 2078209 - Posted: 18 Jun 2021, 20:50:28 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jun 2021, 20:53:26 UTC

Expensively blundering and bumbling along?...

Deadly expensive?


Another Boeing-Airbus tanker war is coming soon
wrote:
Boeing and Airbus could find themselves duking it out as early as next year to provide aerial refueling aircraft to the U.S. Air Force, reigniting a bitter battle between Boeing’s KC-46 and Airbus’s A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport.

The Air Force on Tuesday released a sources sought notice for a non developmental tanker aircraft known as KC-Y that would bridge the gap between KC-46 and the next ... tanker ... with the new bridge tanker operational in 2029 — the same year the last KC-46 is due to be delivered...

... Since winning the KC-46 program, Boeing has incurred more than $5 billion in losses as technical glitches have stacked up and required expensive fixes...

... some lawmakers have shown interest in canceling Boeing’s KC-46 contract and moving that business to Airbus...

... U.S. Air Force fighters operating in Europe regularly receive fuel from the A330 tanker...


FAA mandates inspection checks on Boeing 737 MAX flight-control system
wrote:
The Federal Aviation Administration released a directive Thursday requiring airlines to do regular maintenance checks of the flight-control software on Boeing’s 737 MAX and to periodically test the operation of cutoff switches the pilots use if system failures occur...

... it issued the directive “to highlight the importance of these inspections to other international regulators and to operators outside the United States.”...

... New flight-control software on the MAX that wasn’t on previous 737 models — known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) — activated erroneously on the two fatal crash flights in 2018 and 2019 that killed 346 people in Indonesia and in Ethiopia.

Boeing updated that software to fix its flawed design...

... The new FAA directive requires a check of the entire flight-control software system...

... The directive states that regular checks are deemed necessary because of the possibility of a “latent failure” of some element of the flight-control system — meaning a failure that might not be immediately apparent but could manifest later...

... The FAA official said the directive demands relatively frequent inspections...”

The directive also requires airline maintenance staff to check that the switches on the pilot-control console that cut electrical power to the moving surfaces on the horizontal tail are functioning ... pilots would use this pair of cutoff switches to stop the system from pushing the airplane’s nose down.

A third newly mandated maintenance check requires technicians to periodically check an autopilot cutoff switch as well as the electrical ground path that controls the moving part of the horizontal tail — known as the stabilizer — and therefore the pitch of the airplane.


Ryanair's first Boeing Max jet to arrive in Dublin today
wrote:
RYANAIR will today take delivery of its first Boeing Max jet after a more than two-year delay following two deadly crashes involving the aircraft type...

... The Ryanair Max 737 8-200 jet...

... Mr O’Leary has described the Max jet as a “game-changer” for the industry, delivering more seats but lower operating costs...

... While Boeing pilots reportedly knew years before that the MCAS system was causing a problem, the firm is said to have hidden MCAS from commercial flight crews until after the first crash.



Whatever deadly short term greedy profit was gained has now been long lost in the deadly consequences.

Yet, the deadly silliness continues?

Really? The Boeing 737 MAX flight control system is too much of an unreliable unknown not to require repeated external testing to see if it still seems to work well enough? I really hope those tests are full and complete "end-to-end" tests! (Unlike as was nearly fatally not done for the Boeing "Star Liner" flight test...)


For myself, I'm not flying the Boeing MAX under any circumstances other than if already dead.


At the cost and risk of who's lives?...

Fly safe folks!!
Martin
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Message 2078219 - Posted: 18 Jun 2021, 22:50:21 UTC - in response to Message 2078209.  

Really? The Boeing 737 MAX flight control system is too much of an unreliable unknown not to require repeated external testing to see if it still seems to work well enough?

WOW! You mean you shouldn't have to test a mechanical switch to see if it works? WOW!

You need this https://www.youtube.com/user/UGOT2CTHIS Dan will teach you about the number one cause.
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Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)


 
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