The Train Thread 3

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Message 2118423 - Posted: 28 Apr 2023, 5:52:12 UTC - in response to Message 2118420.  

If a railroad can go thru there so can catenary, which electric trains use,

call BS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcqfa_uj2hA
And ask why the 11 for 8 bridge couldn't be made higher than 12'4". Buried utilities!

Don't forget RR track has to be very close to level, changing its grade can be a many miles long project for just a few feet of elevation.
Lower tunnel? You can't run a tunnel boring machine through it to make it bigger now, so that means pick and shovel. How many man hours? Remember the construction for the original transcontinental RR?

You are right RR land is private, and that means the land on either side is as well, no expansion of width, ergo no electrification in places.

Don't forget if the mains are all electric then all the spur tracks must be too and the RR's don't own a large number of them, so who pays for that or do we just shut down an industry?

SCE is insulating low voltage lines. The only insulator for high tension lines is feet of air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0
You did read the power in Megawatts of each locomotive didn't you? You do realize each engine is the same as the draw for a small town. There can be 10 on a single train. That power isn't delivered by low voltage.

The real world is not built as you imagine it should be.

no profit = inflation
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Message 2118424 - Posted: 28 Apr 2023, 8:12:16 UTC

https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=84739&postid=2118402
What a mess.
A few thing pop out from the photo in Wiggo's post.
First is the state of those sleepers - there are a lot of "well rotted" ones visible. There is little sign of flange slicing of them (a very distinct mark, a bit like that of a very blunt axe chop), but plenty of pre-existing damage as shown by the significant longitudinal (to the sleeper) cracking and "blow-outs" where lumps of the timber have simply fallen out. Then there's the spikes pulling out which is indicative of them being in soft (rotted) timber.
Next is are the two broken (or cut) rails - this can happen if rails have been cut and poorly welded to replace a section of damaged rail. It's very strange than the two rails have been cut at the same location very close to a bolter rail joint. (it's difficult to count the sleepers, but it looks to be about 15 closely spaced sleepers, so about20 feet) was this a transition between welded & bolted track? The two bolted rail joints near the camera show that the rail joints were nicely staggered which is a good thing.
The ballast looks to be "well past its use-by date" with many rounded stones (great for drainage, but very poor at holding the track in place).

Now onto the rather "interesting" comments.
While it is true that both concrete and wooden sleepers exhibit similar damage when struck by a flange, a wooden sleeper will generally fair worse than a concrete on of similar age, and the damage to the wooden sleeper tends to increase exponentially with age, whereas that to the concrete one is fairly constant once one gets out of the extended setting period (a few months). Concrete sleepers also far stronger, against lateral forces, than wooden ones. Concrete sleepers have a much better grip on spikes than wood, so tend not to exhibit spikes being forced out of their holes.
Cost - the initial cost of a concrete sleeper is higher than a wooden one (at least n places where you can get "sleeper grade" timber). But the maintenance is significantly lower, and the replacement life much higher. Certainly in Europe the balance is well over to concrete sleepers, and depending on who you talk to it's between 1.1 and >3.

Overall it looks to be poor maintenance at play in at least increasing the severity of this accident - even allowing for the differences in track standards between class 1 and class 2 that section of track was in need of some serious remedial action before the accident (and now obviously warrants some serious repair work).
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Message 2118427 - Posted: 28 Apr 2023, 8:51:12 UTC

The discussion of the US railroads going "all electric" has been raging for years, and will continue to do so., but there are a few misconceptions around.
First Europe does not have a 100% electric railway network, with the degree of electrification varying from country to country and as far as I'm aware there is not one major country having 100% - even Switzerland and Netherlands (tow of the nearest to 100%) have unelectrified sections of line and so rely on diesel for the "last mile".
Given the population distribution in the north American continent supplying electricity some very signifiant lengths of the network is quite some challenge, not an insurmountable one, but still a big and expensive challenge. Given that, from what I can gather, much of the power distribution is based on state-wide networks rather than being country-wide it is hardly surprising that there are some substantial in the railway network electric power coverage.
Power demand (per locomotive) is something in the region of 4MW, or about 2000* (US) houses, or about that of an "average" US town, given that many US freight trains have multiple locomotives it will be the equivalent of several towns.

The 11 ft 8 in bridge was raised to 12" 4" in 2019, but it's still a "can-opener" for over-height road vehicles. Buried utilities are an obstacle, not a total blockage, there are many places where they have been relocated. One really shouldn't bury utilities under (along) railway tracks as the vibration from passing trains can be quite deleterious to them, in the UK we've had gas lines, water pipes (fresh & sewerage) and electricity damaged by this.....

Neither "private" nor "public" ownership is the answer, in a network like the US both have their place, but sufficient, adequate and enforceable standards would go a long way to solving the problem. I spent some time having to come to grips with the design and construction standards around the world, and found that too many of the US standards were based on "use this material" not "achieve this property" for them to be fully effective. One can imagine the "fun" when a material specified by trade name is not available/acceptable for use in another country when there are materials of the same (or often better) properties available in the target market.

* Based on the time I lived in the US (~1975-1980) I find the quoted figure of 2kW somewhat low, but I'll work with it.
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Message 2118438 - Posted: 28 Apr 2023, 17:22:11 UTC - in response to Message 2118423.  
Last modified: 28 Apr 2023, 17:25:17 UTC

If a railroad can go thru there so can catenary, which electric trains use,

call BS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcqfa_uj2hA
And ask why the 11 for 8 bridge couldn't be made higher than 12'4". Buried utilities!

Don't forget RR track has to be very close to level, changing its grade can be a many miles long project for just a few feet of elevation.
Lower tunnel? You can't run a tunnel boring machine through it to make it bigger now, so that means pick and shovel. How many man hours? Remember the construction for the original transcontinental RR?

You are right RR land is private, and that means the land on either side is as well, no expansion of width, ergo no electrification in places.

Don't forget if the mains are all electric then all the spur tracks must be too and the RR's don't own a large number of them, so who pays for that or do we just shut down an industry?

SCE is insulating low voltage lines. The only insulator for high tension lines is feet of air.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXiOQCRiSp0
You did read the power in Megawatts of each locomotive didn't you? You do realize each engine is the same as the draw for a small town. There can be 10 on a single train. That power isn't delivered by low voltage.

The real world is not built as you imagine it should be.

no profit = inflation

I was replying to tunnels, a bridge would have to be replaced, lowering a railroad tunnel floor has been done, point of fact here's one and it has a 12.4" gas main.

The tunnel, constructed in 1860, originally had an overall height of approximately 17 feet (5.2 m) (prior to the 2008 repairs, which lowered the floor of the tunnel) and a width of roughly 14 feet (4.3 m) at the base, increasing to approximately 16 feet (4.9 m) wide at approximately 9 feet (2.7 m) above top of rail. The tunnel provides passage for a single track over ballast. The track grade is generally level.


Land the railroad owns is generally pretty wide, like about 100' or so, wide enough for double tracks if needed in the future.
Most small railroads almost shut down on their own by not being able to maintain their tracks.Why? Cause most CUSTOMERS have gone to having trucks serve them instead of the small railroads.
Electric locos have higher hp than any diesel, so less would be required, catenary makes 10,000hp easy, but then there are no fuel tanks, no heavy engine, and no heated exhaust...
Most container trains have 6 diesels on the head end(about 4000hp each max), and a helper at the rear, an electric container train would be 4 locos, 3 in front and 1 at the rear(assumes 10,000hp each).
I didn't say low, you did and I quote from smart-energy.com, you might need to prove you are human there, I did, it took a couple of tries...

Southern California Edison (SCE), will begin insulating power lines in Valencia in preparation for the wildfire season. The work has been deemed critical and the utility said the crews will practice physical distancing while doing the installations.

Six spans of bare wire will be replaced with covered conductor near the I-5 Freeway. This insulation will help prevent power line damage during extreme weather.

The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's
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Message 2118529 - Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 0:41:17 UTC - in response to Message 2118438.  

(your idea of low voltage is much different than the power company's)
When you look up why high tension lines are in bundles you should begin to understand why attempting to insulate them is not possible.

As to bridges, most RR goes under a bridge at least at one point on the line, so now that line can't be electrified per you.

As to tunnels, today they are dug using TBM's*. However an existing tunnel has abutments. A TBM can't be used unless the abutments are removed, and replaced after. Also everything in the tunnel, such as a liner, communications, drainage, etc. If you can't use a TBM then it is pick and shovel! Don't forget most RR tunnels were made the old fashioned way, dynamite and human muscle. Don't forget the time involved, and the disruption to freight traffic. Also don't forget the logistics of getting the TBM to the tunnel. Ship by rail? Only if the line has clearance for the TBM, er cutting face diameter. Or ship in pieces and add months to the schedule.

Now as to lowering the track in a tunnel, you run into another problem. In mountains, track frequently comes out of a tunnel and immediately over a bridge. Now the track is lower, but the bridge isn't. Now you have to replace a bridge too.

The engineering in a railroad right of way is much more complex than it looks at first blush. Any national mandate has to work everywhere nationally. Not just on one cherry picked route.


TBM Tunnel Boring Machine, see Elon's The Boring Company.
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Message 2118531 - Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 1:12:06 UTC - in response to Message 2118529.  

Not to mention shotcrete, which has been used in tunnels.

Shotcrete is commonly used to line tunnel walls, in mines, subways, and automobile tunnels. Fire-resistant shotcrete developed in Norway is used on the Marmaray tunnel in Istanbul.

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Message 2118541 - Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 8:34:02 UTC - in response to Message 2118529.  
Last modified: 30 Apr 2023, 8:36:16 UTC

I am currently traveling in a country - Spain - where the high-speed electric trains (300+ KM/hr, 25,000 V ac catenary) can adapt - with passengers on board, and while moving slowly - to 2,500 V dc and a broader gauge. And there are mountains and viaducts. It can be done, where there's a will. Search 'Talgo' - I arrived in Barcelona yesterday on a Renfe Class 102 (or possibly a 112 - not intending to be precise) from Malaga.
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Message 2118543 - Posted: 30 Apr 2023, 9:47:00 UTC

Tunnel boring machines are great for digging new tunnels, but are not so good for opening up existing ones. HOWEVER there are a whole family of mining machines that are designed to do that, and they ave been used in other parts of the world to do just that. By careful planning it is possible to do this on lines that are closed to traffic for a few hours at a time - close the line, "dig" a bit, clear the spoil, open the line repeat until the whole tunnel has been expanded the required amount. Also there are ways of supporting the overhead supply (in tunnels) without the need for lineside posts - a solid conductor is suspended from the tunnel roof, this has the advantage that you can get use much smaller clearances between the conductor wire and the tunnel and train than you need with a suspended catenary wire system.
In cuttings and rail-gorges it is possible to replace the posts with brackets attached to the rock walls - no/minimal increase in width required.

Richard's example of Spain is just country where a multitude of problems have been overcome by the application of a bit of lateral thinking.
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Message 2118580 - Posted: 1 May 2023, 5:07:49 UTC - in response to Message 2118541.  

I am currently traveling in a country - Spain - where the high-speed electric trains (300+ KM/hr, 25,000 V ac catenary) can adapt - with passengers on board, and while moving slowly - to 2,500 V dc and a broader gauge. And there are mountains and viaducts. It can be done, where there's a will. Search 'Talgo' - I arrived in Barcelona yesterday on a Renfe Class 102 (or possibly a 112 - not intending to be precise) from Malaga.

Such things are wonderfully possible with short passenger trains. Not so much with 3 mile long unit trains as run in freight service in the USA. People tend to underestimate by a couple of powers of ten the total kinetic energy in the train, which had to be supplied by the locomotives to get it rolling and also removed by the brakes to get it stopped. Such a unit train, loaded at speed may take a mile to stop even with maximum (emergency) brake application.
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Message 2118581 - Posted: 1 May 2023, 5:30:21 UTC - in response to Message 2118543.  
Last modified: 1 May 2023, 5:31:11 UTC

Tunnel boring machines are great for digging new tunnels, but are not so good for opening up existing ones. HOWEVER there are a whole family of mining machines that are designed to do that, and they ave been used in other parts of the world to do just that. By careful planning it is possible to do this on lines that are closed to traffic for a few hours at a time - close the line, "dig" a bit, clear the spoil, open the line repeat until the whole tunnel has been expanded the required amount. Also there are ways of supporting the overhead supply (in tunnels) without the need for lineside posts - a solid conductor is suspended from the tunnel roof, this has the advantage that you can get use much smaller clearances between the conductor wire and the tunnel and train than you need with a suspended catenary wire system.
In cuttings and rail-gorges it is possible to replace the posts with brackets attached to the rock walls - no/minimal increase in width required.

Richard's example of Spain is just country where a multitude of problems have been overcome by the application of a bit of lateral thinking.
I know it can be done, the Rat Hole division is an example where the tunnels were either bypassed, re bored or in a couple cases enlarged. The RR wanted this badly as they had more freight traffic than they could move on the line and the only solution was to widen clearances and daylight tunnels for air. Geology of the area also has to permit it.

As to wire clearance, finding a way to hang the wire is not the problem. The issue is if the loco has a catenary as the pickup then the tunnel has to have clearance for it. Third rail should be banned for safety and rolling trolley wire is subject to far to many failures, especially at switches. You need safety clearance for when the wire breaks as well, because it will break at some point.
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Message 2118582 - Posted: 1 May 2023, 5:41:13 UTC
Last modified: 1 May 2023, 5:42:27 UTC

Here's the EMD-GM10B, it's supposed to be a 10,000hp electric loco, this wiki here has pics and it's the GM10B.

One is the GM6C(1975) and one is the GM10B(1976) locomotive.
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Message 2118583 - Posted: 1 May 2023, 6:53:24 UTC - in response to Message 2118582.  

Notice the very high reach of the pantograph/catenary system - that will be to allow for the vary tall double-deck passenger or double-stack container trains you run in the Western USA. But a high-voltage pantograph can operate safely at much lower reach, and dual-voltage lower still. Here in Barcelona, even the urban metro trains use a mini overhear catenary for all the underground system.

As Rob says, it simply needs co-ordinated thinking and planning, to accommodate track, train, and terrain.
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Message 2119872 - Posted: 23 May 2023, 23:46:23 UTC

TRAINTOPIA!
- 20,000 man-hours and more than a million dollars went into making TrainTopia a North Texas destination spot for train lovers and history buffs.

This G-Scale train layout at The Museum of the American Railroad in Frisco, Texas, features seven rail lines, hundreds of miniature cars and people, a drive-in theater, and beautiful scenic views of the southwest in the 1960s.
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Message 2120321 - Posted: 2 Jun 2023, 20:58:03 UTC

What can 1 say about train safety in India? Not much.

Train collision in eastern India kills at least 50, injuring hundreds.

At least 50 people have been killed and 350 injured after two passenger trains collided in the eastern Indian state of Odisha on Friday.

The Coromandel Express, which runs from Kolkata to Chennai, collided with another passenger train, the Howrah Superfast Express, railway officials said.

The Howrah Superfast Express derailed and became entangled with the Coromandel Express, South Eastern Railway authorities said in a statement.

Dattatraya Bhausaheb Shinde, the top administrator in the Balasore district, said at least 50 people were dead.

The cause of the accident is under investigation.

Nearly 500 police officers and rescue workers along with 75 ambulances and buses responded to the accident, Pradeep Jena, the top bureaucrat of the Odisha state, said.

Mr Jena told reporters more than 350 injured passengers had been admitted to various hospitals.....
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Message 2120363 - Posted: 3 Jun 2023, 22:43:05 UTC

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Message 2120657 - Posted: 9 Jun 2023, 11:00:12 UTC

How inconvenient.

Train derailment on line to London Bridge causes travel chaos on Thameslink.

A derailment within a depot between Dartford and London Bridge has forced all lines to be closed this morning.

Major disruption was caused by the incident, with Network rail reporting just before 9am that the train was now clear of the track at Plumstead. However it was being inspected for damage caused so disruption would continue throughout the day.

“This came to a stand blocking the running line, and the power in the area has been turned off as a result, meaning the line is blocked and no trains can run between Dartford and London Bridge.”

Network rail posted an update on its website saying there will be major disruption until midday, and they “have re-railed the derailed train, further safety inspections are underway and are expected to take up to 1 hour.”....
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Message 2120702 - Posted: 9 Jun 2023, 23:15:28 UTC

There goes another 1. :-(

Video captures shocking aftermath of massive train derailment in Arizona.

I hope that no one was waiting for a new vehicle to arrive.
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Message 2120888 - Posted: 14 Jun 2023, 7:00:00 UTC

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Message 2121128 - Posted: 18 Jun 2023, 6:53:00 UTC

Train loses its load, but human error can be ruled out.

Investigation underway after driverless train operated by Rio Tinto derails outside of Karratha.

An investigation has started after a driverless train operated by mining giant Rio Tinto derailed on the outskirts of Karratha.

The incident happened around 6:30pm on Saturday, leaving multiple train cars overturned next to the rail line along Warlu Road.

The mining giant operates around 14,000 cars across its Pilbara rail lines, with each car holding up to 118 tonnes of iron ore.

A Rio Tinto spokesperson said the train was heading to the Port of Dampier from one of its mine sites.

"The incident involved a loaded train, with approximately 30 wagons derailed," he said.

"The safety and wellbeing of our people and communities is our top priority.

"The train was in autonomous mode and no-one was injured in the incident."

The rail line is only used by the mining giant, and does not host other trains.

Work to recover the derailed wagons has commenced and the Office of the National Rail Safety Regulator (ONRSR) has been notified.......
Cheers.
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Message 2121140 - Posted: 18 Jun 2023, 14:01:54 UTC

Cumberland Mine RR derailment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D707QlT1kuQ
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