Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? Pt 2

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 2033855 - Posted: 25 Feb 2020, 0:16:39 UTC - in response to Message 2033837.  

And the workforce get scapegoated and sacrificed?
Are there any laws against that?

The courts have ruled fiduciary responsibility. The law mandates that sort of behavior.

So... A change in the law or a change in the interpretation of the law is needed?...
All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin

It doesn't even need to be law. Companies that are led by accountants will always do the sums and if the expected costs of any and all failures is less than a certain percentage of the profits and doesn't have any long term affects on the shareholders income, then the company will always do and argue for the least amount of work possible.

Which is the essence of "the fiduciary duty to the shareholder." Do whatever to maximize the return to the investor. If breaking a law with a maximum fine of $50,000.00 gets $5,000,000.00 in profit, you break the law. Throw workers under the bus. Throw shift managers under the other side of the bus. Make money.
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Message 2033865 - Posted: 25 Feb 2020, 1:41:55 UTC - in response to Message 2033855.  
Last modified: 25 Feb 2020, 2:58:05 UTC

It doesn't even need to be law. Companies that are led by accountants will always do the sums and if the expected costs of any and all failures is less than a certain percentage of the profits and doesn't have any long term affects on the shareholders income, then the company will always do and argue for the least amount of work possible.

Which is the essence of "the fiduciary duty to the shareholder." Do whatever to maximize the return to the investor. If breaking a law with a maximum fine of $50,000.00 gets $5,000,000.00 in profit, you break the law. Throw workers under the bus. Throw shift managers under the other side of the bus. Make money.

So...

Have Boeing coldly callously deliberately calculated that there is more profit to be made in killing their aircraft passengers?

And really? Is that 'legal'??


All in our deadly greedy world...
Martin
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Message 2033878 - Posted: 25 Feb 2020, 3:47:53 UTC - in response to Message 2033865.  

And really? Is that 'legal'??
Just Ford about Pintos.
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Message 2033882 - Posted: 25 Feb 2020, 5:01:14 UTC - in response to Message 2033865.  

Have Boeing coldly callously deliberately calculated that there is more profit to be made in killing their aircraft passengers?

And really? Is that 'legal'??

The law mandates that, don'r blame Boeing blame the courts, The courts demand fiduciary duty to the shareholders. That is not open to discussion.
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Message 2033912 - Posted: 25 Feb 2020, 10:46:51 UTC - in response to Message 2033865.  

Here are the Boeing Board of Directors

A list that takes some studying to find someone who knows what and how the business works.
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Message 2033947 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 3:10:05 UTC
Last modified: 26 Feb 2020, 3:43:18 UTC

Here on Planet Earth for Boeing...


Delays in 737 MAX certification flight may push off Boeing’s goal to win approval by midsummer
wrote:
... Software and wiring fixes pending...

... Boeing initially dismissed this as merely a nuisance light that would require a simple software patch and wouldn’t cause a delay.

However, engineers have now established that the problem is trickier to fix than first thought. It stems from a small disagreement between the angles of the two parts of the stabilizer on either side of the tail....



The control wiring dangers and fixes have already been mentioned.

Is this tailplane angle disagree something new and a worrying consequence of the additional loading and flexing that the tailplanes suffer for the uprated 737 Max?... IIRC, there is comment elsewhere online about unexpectedly large uncommanded non-actuated tailplane angle deviations...



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Message 2033951 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 3:25:09 UTC - in response to Message 2026666.  
Last modified: 26 Feb 2020, 3:35:30 UTC

While assembling the Max, workers at Boeing’s Renton, Wash., factory had ground down the outer shell of a panel that sits atop the engine housing in an effort to ensure a better fit into the plane. In doing so, they inadvertently removed the coating that insulates the panel from a lightning strike, taking away a crucial protection for the fuel tank and fuel lines
Huh?! A lightning bolt travels through miles of air, one of the best insulators around. Some coating is supposed to do a better job? Sounds like someone got the story wrong or is omitting many details.

And the answer is (unsurprisingly):


U.S. regulator: Airlines should complete inspections on 737 MAX panels before flying
wrote:
... for detailed inspections and repairs or replacement if needed for panels on top of the engine housing that may not ensure adequate shielding of the underlying wiring.

Boeing said in the December bulletin that owners had six months to complete inspections and repairs, but the FAA is now proposing that the actions be conducted before the airlines make further flights because of the “potential for a common-cause failure of both engines.” ...




However, very scary stuff for why only found now?... And really?? Go flying for six months when a single lightning strike could very well cause disaster??!

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Message 2033962 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 3:48:01 UTC - in response to Message 2033951.  

While assembling the Max, workers at Boeing’s Renton, Wash., factory had ground down the outer shell of a panel that sits atop the engine housing in an effort to ensure a better fit into the plane. In doing so, they inadvertently removed the coating that insulates the panel from a lightning strike, taking away a crucial protection for the fuel tank and fuel lines
Huh?! A lightning bolt travels through miles of air, one of the best insulators around. Some coating is supposed to do a better job? Sounds like someone got the story wrong or is omitting many details.

And the answer is (unsurprisingly):


U.S. regulator: Airlines should complete inspections on 737 MAX panels before flying
wrote:
... for detailed inspections and repairs or replacement if needed for panels on top of the engine housing that may not ensure adequate shielding of the underlying wiring.

Boeing said in the December bulletin that owners had six months to complete inspections and repairs, but the FAA is now proposing that the actions be conducted before the airlines make further flights because of the “potential for a common-cause failure of both engines.” ...




However, very scary stuff for why only found now?... And really?? Go flying for six months when a single lightning strike could very well cause disaster??!

All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin

It's been known about for several months at least, those months have been filled with discussions on how and where and by whom the repairs are carried out.
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Message 2034023 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 13:40:27 UTC

For some interesting context, here's an article describing just some of Boeing's varients of their 737:


Boeing Has Built 22 Variations Of The 737


For just one example, I'd never realised that the original 737 carrying 85 passengers has since then been stretched to carry up to 204 passengers now... Some stretch...


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Message 2034073 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 19:40:56 UTC - in response to Message 2034023.  

For some interesting context, here's an article describing just some of Boeing's varients of their 737:


Boeing Has Built 22 Variations Of The 737


For just one example, I'd never realised that the original 737 carrying 85 passengers has since then been stretched to carry up to 204 passengers now... Some stretch...


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin

Making the plane single class and reducing the seat pitch from 38" (1st class) and 34" (2nd Class) to 28" as used by Ryanair makes a big difference. There are 28 seats in the Max where there used to be a maximum of 12 First class seats.
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Message 2034079 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 20:15:09 UTC

Between the B737-100 and the B737MAX-10
Seat pitch only tells part of the story. The length has gone from 94ft to 143.7ft, the span from 93ft to 117ft 10in, exit limit (effectively the maximum number of passengers permitted) from 124 to 230. (As far as I'm aware the MAX-10 hasn't actually been built.)
The exit limit is particularly telling as that means more exits have been installed (the rules say all passengers must be able to exit the aircraft in 90 seconds using 50% of the exits).

All this load increase has been accompanied by a power increase from 14000lb to 29000lb.
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Message 2034090 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 21:36:02 UTC - in response to Message 2034079.  
Last modified: 26 Feb 2020, 21:36:46 UTC

Between the B737-100 and the B737MAX-10
Seat pitch only tells part of the story. The length has gone from 94ft to 143.7ft, the span from 93ft to 117ft 10in, exit limit (effectively the maximum number of passengers permitted) from 124 to 230. (As far as I'm aware the MAX-10 hasn't actually been built.)
The exit limit is particularly telling as that means more exits have been installed (the rules say all passengers must be able to exit the aircraft in 90 seconds using 50% of the exits).

All this load increase has been accompanied by a power increase from 14000lb to 29000lb.

If the original had been the same length as now and single class it would have had ~156 seats with the same seat pitch. So the change in pitch has also added ~50 seats.
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Message 2034098 - Posted: 26 Feb 2020, 22:34:09 UTC

The simple scaling seat numbers with fuselage length doesn't work as the nose (from the back of the cockpit forward) and tail sections have stayed more or less the same, but the cabin length has gone up; crudely all the legnht has gone into the cabin.
I can't find the cabin length figures, but even they are a bit misleading as they don't always take count of space not available for seat such as kitchens, crew lockers, toilets etc..
(I flew on one of the very early Lufthansa B737, and they lost a lot of space by having extra toilets, two kitchens, and a rear in-cabin baggage area, some of which were removed and replaced by seating quite early on. Even today Lufthansa have a lower passenger load than many other airlines)
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Message 2034136 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 2:30:55 UTC

The BBC has seen the Air Safety Report (ASR) of that event. BA threatens staff with disciplinary action - or even the sack - if they reveal the contents of such confidential reports, but one of them has risked it, arguing that the truth needs to be known.
Profits 1st & to hell with safety?
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Message 2034190 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 14:05:54 UTC

Fume events are not uncommon :-( on all aircraft types :-(
I suppose the most famous, or is it infamous?, were the HS146 which used to have a very distinctive aroma most notably during decent. I would describe it as a heavy non-volatile solvent smell, while others flying with me used other phrases including stale baby sick.
Also of note is that newer types of aircraft such as the B787 do not use bleed air off the engine compressors, but use air drawn in from outside via electrically driven compressors which should help reduce if not eliminate this problem.
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Message 2034195 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 14:51:33 UTC - in response to Message 2034136.  

The BBC has seen the Air Safety Report (ASR) of that event. BA threatens staff with disciplinary action - or even the sack - if they reveal the contents of such confidential reports, but one of them has risked it, arguing that the truth needs to be known.
Profits 1st & to hell with safety?

Of course. They don't want to go around telling you that the oil they use contains nerve agents and you will breath it. I mean, do you think they could sell a single ticket if they told the truth?
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Message 2034212 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 17:35:40 UTC - in response to Message 2034190.  
Last modified: 27 Feb 2020, 17:36:47 UTC

Fume events are not uncommon :-( on all aircraft types :-( ...

Yes, and so why 'overlooked'?

IIRC elsewhere, there is a certain aircraft type that is known for oil leaking/spilling from the APU in the tail. That lost oil then all-too-easily pools in the air ducting where it then isn't practical to clean it up even if noticed during the maintenance...

Also, are the air intakes protected in any way from pulling in the fumes when the plane is doused with deicer?...


Also of note is that newer types of aircraft such as the B787 do not use bleed air off the engine compressors, but use air drawn in from outside via electrically driven compressors which should help reduce if not eliminate this problem.

But will that still protect the cabin air from APU oil leaks/spillage...?


Keeping the air safe from failed/failing/worn oil seals should be good "safe design"... Why has that not been done?...

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Message 2034213 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 17:42:13 UTC
Last modified: 27 Feb 2020, 17:42:51 UTC

Further on the Boeing Starliner 'mishaps':

Boeing didn't perform full test of its astronaut capsule before troubled mission, 'surprising' NASA safety panel
wrote:
... Critically, the [NASA] panel learned early this month that Boeing did not perform a full, end-to-end integrated test of Starliner in a Systems Integration Lab with ULA’s Atlas V rocket. The test typically shows how all the software systems during each component of the mission would have responded with each other through every maneuver — and it could potentially have caught the issues Boeing later experienced in the mission.

“It’s pretty exhaustive [(comprehensive)]. You gotta do that,”...

... the multitude of problems have led NASA to call for a full re-verification of Boeing’s software — a process that will take analyzing about a million lines of code...

... Still, he added, “that doesn’t mean it’s not a business right? And they’re trying to do things efficiently and cost-effectively.”

Boeing said it followed all of the testing procedures NASA required of it prior to the Starliner test flight...



Is that any way to fly people into space?...

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Message 2034215 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 17:46:55 UTC

Is this where Canada is setting the safe standards?

Canada mulling made-in-Ottawa supplement to Boeing's 737 MAX flight manual wrote:
... Transport Canada is among a core group of regulators, including the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), that are evaluating needed changes for the 737 MAX to fly again after nearly a year.

Transport Canada told Reuters by email on Wednesday it would not hesitate to add "Canadian-unique" non-normal procedures as a supplement to the MAX's aircraft flight manual...

... "Fortunately, in some cases, as the time went along they [FAA/Boeing] started to adopt these ideas," he said.

"I guess they came to their own conclusions and validated our concerns. But we’re not done yet."



Can the USA FAA be 'trusted'?...

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Message 2034258 - Posted: 27 Feb 2020, 20:04:38 UTC

Also, are the air intakes protected in any way from pulling in the fumes when the plane is doused with deicer?...

From what I've read and heard it is a requirement to shut of the APU when being de-iced, and the vast majority of airlines instruct pilots to shut of the air-con during de-icing and for a few short time once it is finished (remember on the vast majority of airliners the APU is shut down as soon as the first main engine starts. If the APU is off then the auxiliary cabin air-intake is shut as it is (or at least should be) held open by air being drawn through it from the outside.
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Message boards : Politics : Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? Pt 2


 
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