Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? Pt 2

Message boards : Politics : Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? Pt 2
Message board moderation

To post messages, you must log in.

Previous · 1 . . . 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · 18 · 19 . . . 26 · Next

AuthorMessage
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 20786
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2033229 - Posted: 20 Feb 2020, 22:12:14 UTC

It would be a real risk point to introduce a new set of regulations while an aircraft was in production. Far simpler, and probably safer, is to introduce them at a defined start of build date, as it can then be assured that all the required design changes are introduced with no re-work. Also, doing so gives the manufacturer a chance to ensure that all the required tooling & materials are in place and any required training has taken place before the cut-in point. Remember these changes can actually have a long lead time, particularly when they involve structural alterations.
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2033229 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
moomin
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 21 Oct 17
Posts: 6204
Credit: 38,420
RAC: 0
Sweden
Message 2033232 - Posted: 20 Feb 2020, 22:22:32 UTC

So what regulation has FAA on wiring issues?
They have some. Sort of. Many of them are apparently not mandatory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fkCWPq9dNM
ID: 2033232 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29161
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2033235 - Posted: 20 Feb 2020, 23:25:13 UTC - in response to Message 2033214.  
Last modified: 20 Feb 2020, 23:33:49 UTC

Not to be confused with (reliably controlled) forced air cooling...

So you posit that every millimeter of every cable can have a fan blowing upon it. Because if you leave even one millimeter without forced air the only way it can cool is by convection.
ID: 2033235 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29161
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2033236 - Posted: 20 Feb 2020, 23:33:20 UTC - in response to Message 2033220.  

The fix is not "simple" or "trivial" - it is a TOTAL re-wire of just about every system on the aircraft...

My understanding is that the wiring of catastrophic concern is one (16 foot?) section for the (two?) control wires to the tail jackscrew actuator.
I think you missed the post with the part about the design standards and that the loom must have an unbroken waxed cotton thread that secures the entire loom, so to replace any wire, guess what, you have to replace the entire waxed cotton thread from the nose to the tail of the aircraft. Well, may have to, might not if you are really really good and untying it and tying it back and assuming you don't need to extend it any.
ID: 2033236 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033258 - Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 1:55:34 UTC - in response to Message 2033179.  
Last modified: 21 Feb 2020, 1:57:00 UTC

How many more problems are there to find?
737 Max: Debris found in planes' fuel tanks
Boeing's crisis-hit 737 Max jetliner faces a new potential safety issue as debris has been found in the fuel tanks of several of the planes.
The head of Boeing's 737 programme has told employees that the discovery was "absolutely unacceptable".

"Prof Simon" gives a brief very direct succinct demonstration of that:

YouTube: F.O.D. - Prof Simon
wrote:
Prof Simon does a test. Not on a Boeing aircraft.



Graphically fatal stuff.

Some of the comments make for interesting reading as to how that might have happened... Especially so if the 'debris' includes parts that should be elsewhere?...

More usefully reported detail:

Report: Boeing Employees Left Tools + Rags In 737 MAX Fuel Tanks

Really?... How can Boeing NOT check ALL their aircraft produced thus far that might have fatal FOD left in the aircraft fuel tanks?...


All in our deadly overly greedy world,
Martin


F.O.D.: Foreign object damage/debris
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033258 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 20786
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2033282 - Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 8:48:10 UTC - in response to Message 2033236.  

It used to be unbroken waxed-cotton thread, but sometime in the late '90s and early 00s the use of external-toothed plastic tie-wraps was permitted. In part this may have been driven by the combination of increased aircraft size and increase amount of cable in each bundle.
(I dread to think how big a real of thread would be to loom-up one of the big cable bundles on say a B747 or A380 - and how unmanageable it would be in a build-on-plane situation)
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2033282 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033547 - Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:30:47 UTC - in response to Message 2033258.  

... "Prof Simon" gives a brief very direct succinct demonstration ... :

YouTube: F.O.D. - Prof Simon
wrote:
Prof Simon does a test. Not on a Boeing aircraft.



Graphically fatal stuff.

Some of the comments make for interesting reading as to how that might have happened... Especially so if the 'debris' includes parts that should be elsewhere?...

More usefully reported detail:

Report: Boeing Employees Left Tools + Rags In 737 MAX Fuel Tanks

Really?... How can Boeing NOT check ALL their aircraft produced thus far that might have fatal FOD left in the aircraft fuel tanks?...

Further reported:

Boeing to expand 737 Max inspections...
wrote:
... The expanded inspections are the result of teams finding debris in about two-thirds of the 737 Max models that have been checked...




All in our deadly overly greedy world,
Martin


F.O.D.: Foreign object damage/debris
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033547 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033548 - Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:39:36 UTC
Last modified: 22 Feb 2020, 17:40:07 UTC

Recent headlines for Boeing and the Boeing 737 Max:


Federal Prosecutors Investigating Whether Boeing Pilot Lied to F.A.A.


Boeing Failure to Fix 737 Max Warning Light May Draw FAA Penalty


Delays in 737 MAX certification flight may push off Boeing’s goal to win approval by midsummer



Curiously, why the additional delays? What else??


All in our deadly overly greedy world,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033548 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033550 - Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:43:52 UTC

Judge for yourselves?


‘I Honestly Don’t Trust Many People at Boeing’: A Broken Culture Exposed



All in our deadly overly greedy world,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033550 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29161
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2033551 - Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 19:05:46 UTC - in response to Message 2033258.  

Report: Boeing Employees Left Tools + Rags In 737 MAX Fuel Tanks

Really?... How can Boeing NOT check ALL their aircraft produced thus far that might have fatal FOD left in the aircraft fuel tanks?...

How do you know that where they are being found isn't the very check you complain about?
ID: 2033551 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033569 - Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 21:33:48 UTC - in response to Message 2033551.  
Last modified: 22 Feb 2020, 21:39:09 UTC

Report: Boeing Employees Left Tools + Rags In 737 MAX Fuel Tanks

Really?... How can Boeing NOT check ALL their aircraft produced thus far that might have fatal FOD left in the aircraft fuel tanks?...

How do you know that where they are being found isn't the very check you complain about?

Is this really the proper time and place for finding 'debris' left in the fuel tanks?...

Boeing finds debris in fuel tanks of many undelivered 737 MAX jets
wrote:
... Boeing found debris in the fuel tanks of about 35 aircraft, a company spokesman confirmed on Friday. A person familiar with the matter told Reuters that more than 50% of the undelivered 737 MAX jets inspected thus far have had debris found in them...

... Boeing was conducting a voluntary inspection for FOD, adding that FAA had increased its surveillance based on initial inspection reports and would take further action based on the findings...



Judge for yourselves...

All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin


F.O.D.: Foreign object damage/debris
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033569 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033603 - Posted: 23 Feb 2020, 0:56:49 UTC
Last modified: 23 Feb 2020, 1:01:23 UTC

This is just one article of many spanning recent years that mention the Boeing stock buy-back:


Boeing engineers unhappy with $12 billion stock buyback
wrote:
Boeing engineers aren't happy about a Boeing decision to buy back up to $12 billion in stock, after the company repurchased $8.8 billion of its own stock the last two years...

... This is especially raw for engineers as they see their jobs moved to other parts of the country...

... Boeing is disrupting engineering and production by moving work and laying off employees and now Boeing will buy back more stock and increase the dividend to shareholders,"...

... Asked about prospects for contract talks in 2016, now that Boeing Machinists acquiesced to letting go of pensions entirely in the contract extension to 2024, Dugovich acknowledged that there will be more pressure to cut costs. "We anticipate tough negotiations," he said.



And is this the killer article?:


Seattle Times Systematically Misinformed Readers About Boeing Until It Was Too Late
wrote:
.... over the past seven years, you find something that is truly astonishing. At the time that Boeing was subjecting large sections of its labor force to continuous layoffs, or the psychological stress of pending layoffs, it never made or even suggested a connection between these cost cuts and the enormous sums of money that the executives in Chicago were devoting to stock buybacks...

... And yet, you read that execs are offered on the regular shares as a considerable part of their pay packages. The value of these shares is in the millions...




And the workforce get scapegoated and sacrificed?

Are there any laws against that?

Read and judge for yourselves...

All in our deadly greedy world?
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033603 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer tester
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 25 Dec 00
Posts: 29161
Credit: 53,134,872
RAC: 32
United States
Message 2033607 - Posted: 23 Feb 2020, 1:23:01 UTC - in response to Message 2033603.  

Are there any laws against that?
The fiduciary duty to the shareholder requires the BOD to increase stock value - buyback. So actually the law doesn't prohibit it, it actually requires it.
ID: 2033607 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033674 - Posted: 23 Feb 2020, 17:27:01 UTC - in response to Message 2033569.  

Report: Boeing Employees Left Tools + Rags In 737 MAX Fuel Tanks

Really?... How can Boeing NOT check ALL their aircraft produced thus far that might have fatal FOD left in the aircraft fuel tanks?...

How do you know that where they are being found isn't the very check you complain about?

Is this really the proper time and place for finding 'debris' left in the fuel tanks?...

Boeing finds debris in fuel tanks of many undelivered 737 MAX jets
wrote:
... Boeing found debris in the fuel tanks of about 35 aircraft, a company spokesman confirmed on Friday. A person familiar with the matter told Reuters that more than 50% of the undelivered 737 MAX jets inspected thus far have had debris found in them...

... Boeing was conducting a voluntary inspection for FOD, adding that FAA had increased its surveillance based on initial inspection reports and would take further action based on the findings...

It's now Sunday and more of the press are waking up to the story.

Is the timing a clever piece of news release so as to have the story buried and forgotten underneath the Monday morning news deluge?...


Further details that I've read are that the 35 debris afflicted planes are out of 50 checked thus far that are 737 Max planes parked waiting for delivery. Boeing are now to check all their yet to be delivered 737 Max planes...

Scary stuff for the portent-ial consequences...


Judge for yourselves...

All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin


F.O.D.: Foreign object damage/debris
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033674 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile betreger Project Donor
Avatar

Send message
Joined: 29 Jun 99
Posts: 11091
Credit: 29,581,041
RAC: 66
United States
Message 2033676 - Posted: 23 Feb 2020, 17:35:51 UTC - in response to Message 2033603.  

And the workforce get scapegoated and sacrificed?

Are there any laws against that?

The courts have ruled fiduciary responsibility. The law mandates that sort of behavior.
ID: 2033676 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033677 - Posted: 23 Feb 2020, 17:37:20 UTC
Last modified: 23 Feb 2020, 17:42:47 UTC

Something to be thoroughly considered:


Boeing’s Shocking Debris Problem Exposes the Company’s Dangerous Monopoly
wrote:
... Boeing may be exploiting its monopoly to deliver substandard products to consumers. This should draw the attention of antitrust regulators...

... With the discovery of foreign object debris in most of Boeing’s undelivered 737 MAX jets, it isn’t unreasonable to assume the jets Boeing has already delivered also contain the dangerous debris. This means Boeing’s monopoly is no longer an abstract issue for lawmakers to discuss. It has become a real danger to the flying public.

Are you ready to fly on a plane with loose tools and other garbage floating around in its fuel tank – a plane that has already led to the preventable deaths of 346 people in just three years of service?...



Judge for yourselves...

All in our deadly greedy world...
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033677 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033829 - Posted: 24 Feb 2020, 21:15:22 UTC - in response to Message 2033220.  
Last modified: 24 Feb 2020, 21:23:50 UTC

The fix is not "simple" or "trivial" - it is a TOTAL re-wire of just about every system on the aircraft...

My understanding is that the wiring of catastrophic concern is one (16 foot?) section for the (two?) control wires to the tail jackscrew actuator...

(All the rest of the wiring should be reviewed for any catastrophic dangers...)

This article succinctly summarizes the main details for that:


FAA, EASA Argue Over MAX Wiring Issue
wrote:
... Boeing recently alerted the FAA that a wiring bundle for tail section controls on the MAX and maybe the previous generation NGs might not have enough clearance from each other and may be at risk for short circuits...

... the issue affects wiring at various locations from nose to tail and rerouting the wires could take about two weeks. EASA wants the wiring fixed before a return to service but Boeing and the FAA say the issue isn’t that urgent...

... The WSJ says a compromise may be proposed where the 400 aircraft now in storage would be modified and those that have already been in service would get the rewiring when the aircraft are already down for scheduled maintenance or software upgrades. Although the issue hasn’t been resolved...

From my uneducated ignorant most humble personal viewpoint:

Note that what should be an innocuous failure of a 'hot' electrical power cable, for this Boeing 737 example, can instead become an unrecoverable catastrophe for the 'at risk' sections of control wires bundled in there...

Boeing's argument that the catastrophe for that "hasn't happened yet and so there is no problem" is in my personal view dangerously facetiously fallacious... The 'game of chance' and 'statistics' and 'risk' don't work like that. All we can say is that so far everyone has been 'lucky enough' not to be killed thus far for that known scenario.

Worse still, the risk of electrical cable damage can be expected to increase as time moves on.

Does Boeing continue to fly those known preventable design faults and unnecessary dangers until they kill another plane or two planes of people again?



The big thing is that the regulators have to get to grips with keeping the regulations up with technology, and not lagging half a century behind it as we have seen with aircraft wiring.

Agreed for that one!

The unsafe cable bundles were 'missed' or 'overlooked' for whatever reasons...

The question now should be for how quickly to fix them to be safe.



All in our deadly greedy world?
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033829 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Profile ML1
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 25 Nov 01
Posts: 15992
Credit: 7,508,002
RAC: 20
United Kingdom
Message 2033833 - Posted: 24 Feb 2020, 21:26:04 UTC - in response to Message 2033607.  

Are there any laws against that?
The fiduciary duty to the shareholder requires the BOD to increase stock value - buyback. So actually the law doesn't prohibit it, it actually requires it.

So... A change in the law or a change in the interpretation of the law is needed?...


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 2033833 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
Volunteer moderator
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 7 Mar 03
Posts: 20786
Credit: 416,307,556
RAC: 380
United Kingdom
Message 2033835 - Posted: 24 Feb 2020, 21:34:17 UTC

So... A change in the law or a change in the interpretation of the law is needed?...


I would say "both", plus a massive change in attitude within both manufacturers and regulatory bodies.
Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?
ID: 2033835 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
W-K 666 Project Donor
Volunteer tester

Send message
Joined: 18 May 99
Posts: 17479
Credit: 40,757,560
RAC: 67
United Kingdom
Message 2033837 - Posted: 24 Feb 2020, 21:51:41 UTC - in response to Message 2033834.  
Last modified: 24 Feb 2020, 21:53:03 UTC

And the workforce get scapegoated and sacrificed?

Are there any laws against that?

The courts have ruled fiduciary responsibility. The law mandates that sort of behavior.

So... A change in the law or a change in the interpretation of the law is needed?...


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin

It doesn't even need to be law. Companies that are led by accountants will always do the sums and if the expected costs of any and all failures is less than a certain percentage of the profits and doesn't have any long term affects on the shareholders income, then the company will always do and argue for the least amount of work possible.
ID: 2033837 · Report as offensive     Reply Quote
Previous · 1 . . . 13 · 14 · 15 · 16 · 17 · 18 · 19 . . . 26 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? Pt 2


 
©2022 University of California
 
SETI@home and Astropulse are funded by grants from the National Science Foundation, NASA, and donations from SETI@home volunteers. AstroPulse is funded in part by the NSF through grant AST-0307956.