Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: Solutions #3

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Richard Haselgrove Project Donor
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Message 2081058 - Posted: 28 Jul 2021, 14:41:30 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jul 2021, 14:42:23 UTC

3-phase also brings into play a new set of hazards that may be unfamiliar to domestic users. I once had responsibility for an office within a shared building. Something - it might have been botched maintenance - lost the common ground connection. So instead of the UK nominal 240V, our office electrical devices were exposed to the phase difference of 415V. Several didn't survive the experience....

The one that did was our PABX telephone cabinet. The engineer came, replaced the - by now, rather smelly - surge protector, and we were back up and running.
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Message 2081095 - Posted: 28 Jul 2021, 21:07:25 UTC - in response to Message 2081057.  

Only can speak to here, but the neighborhood is feed by 3 phase 25K from a substation. There is an underground vault with step downs to 5K three phase. From that vault each block gets a different 5K single phase line. Along the block each group of about 6 houses is fed from a step down to 230 neutral in the middle. None of this is interconnected. I'm not specifically sure if there is only a single feed from the substation to the neighborhood vault, I seem to remember they may have had two lines so they could shut down one for service and still keep the power on. From the substation level back to generation it is interconnected grid, such that in a failure, power can be routed around the failed equipment or sections can be sliced away to stop cascade failures.
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Message 2081251 - Posted: 30 Jul 2021, 23:31:25 UTC - in response to Message 2081095.  
Last modified: 30 Jul 2021, 23:37:43 UTC

At least here for the UK for the final domestic supply street circuits, we normally have a 3-phase ring main powered by x2 redundant transformers. That allows for a transformer to be taken out of service for swap/repairs/reconfigure without anyone losing power at any time. The ring main also allows for live cable repairs, all whilst noone loses power.

Similarly, if needed, additional transformers can be added to a ring to even up the loading around the ring, Or even additional conductors added to the existing conductors to the distribution mix. All very flexible.

However, for something as specific as public high power charge points, likely a whole new dedicated circuit would be installed.


Essentially, no big rip it all up and start from scratch. Just more of the same incremental upgrades as have been ongoing since the big Nationalization rewire earlier last century.


The far greater big bang is with the politics and administrative regulation and who gets rich.


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Message 2081252 - Posted: 30 Jul 2021, 23:35:28 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jul 2021, 23:39:43 UTC

For an idyllic way to go?


Electric Narrowboats: the future for our canals?
wrote:
... Starting on the River Severn and going up the Droitwich canals, eight boats using a variety of power plants would have their fuel, efficiency and any solar input measured and compared...



Amongst the usual silly comments for any video, some of the comments on there are very good and practical. Judge for yourselves.

Enjoy!


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Message 2081276 - Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 7:25:30 UTC - in response to Message 2081252.  

I watched that video recently, and my biggest thought was "At last someone has done a sensible test". Sadly it shows how difficult it would be to run a fully off-grid boat in the UK if one wanted to do a sensible journey every day for a week or two without having an absolutely massive battery bank.
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Message 2081284 - Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 8:18:37 UTC - in response to Message 2081276.  

I watched that video recently, and my biggest thought was "At last someone has done a sensible test". Sadly it shows how difficult it would be to run a fully off-grid boat in the UK if one wanted to do a sensible journey every day for a week or two without having an absolutely massive battery bank.
I'm quite surprised that none of them had a couple of small fold down and extendable wind turbines.
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Message 2081289 - Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 9:45:55 UTC - in response to Message 2081284.  

While wind turbines are effective, they tend to be fairly difficult to stow on the narrow roof of a narrow boat, plus there is often very little headroom between the top of the boat and bridges/tunnels.
A few years ago I had a look at the the available small turbines, their power output was much lower than I expected when compared to their price.
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Message 2081313 - Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 18:41:06 UTC - in response to Message 2081289.  
Last modified: 31 Jul 2021, 18:45:16 UTC

... had a look at the the available small turbines, their power output was much lower than I expected when compared to their price.

Yes, I've found frustratingly similarly so for that.

I do wonder if there is a virtue/vanity pricing mark-up for the small wind turbines until you get up to more useful sizes...


However, a counter example is for an off-grid island on the west of Scotland where they gained a big cost saving in replacing a singular large wind turbine with instead a cluster of much smaller turbines:



Tighard Guest House - Isle of Canna; the most north and westerly of the Small Isles archipelago

A big plus for such a cluster is that there is some redundant operation to protect against failure/breakdown. Also, the equipment is nicely sized to be maintainable by the islanders themselves.

(A web search fails to find any mention of their various off-grid power schemes!)


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Message 2081314 - Posted: 31 Jul 2021, 18:48:43 UTC
Last modified: 31 Jul 2021, 18:49:17 UTC

Can this be a cleaner way to go, and sooner?


China Is Building a Thorium Molten Salt Reactor - Here's Why It Matters


That could well usefully work well... And sooner than large scale fusion reactors...

So why are we still building the overly expensive and overly twitchy pressurized water uranium fueled reactors?!...



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Message 2081398 - Posted: 2 Aug 2021, 0:06:19 UTC
Last modified: 2 Aug 2021, 0:07:32 UTC

A Brain Drain Among Government Scientists Bogs Down Biden’s Climate Ambitions
WASHINGTON – Juliette Hart quit her job last summer as an oceanographer for the United States Geological Survey, where she used climate models to help coastal communities plan for rising seas. She was demoralized after four years of the Trump administration, she said, in which politician appointees pushed her to remove or downplay references to climate change.

“It’s easy and quick to leave government, not so fast for government to regain talent,” said Dr Hart, whose post remains vacant.

President Donald J. Trump’s battle with climate science – his appointees have undermined federal studies, fired scientists, and prompted many experts to resign or retire – continues to reverberate six months after the start of the season. ‘Biden administration. From the Department of Agriculture to the Pentagon to the National Park Service, hundreds of climate and environmental science jobs in the federal government remain vacant.

Scientists and climate policy experts who resigned have not returned. Recruitment is suffering, federal employees say, as government science jobs are no longer seen as isolated from politics. And congressional money to replenish the ranks could take years.

The result is that President Biden’s ambitious plans to deal with climate change are hampered by a brain drain.

The original for this is https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/01/climate/biden-scientists-shortage-climate.html
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Message 2081515 - Posted: 3 Aug 2021, 17:26:18 UTC

Is this the way forward for heavy duty trucks on frequently used routes. UK government backs scheme for motorway cables to power lorries
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Message 2081523 - Posted: 3 Aug 2021, 18:06:31 UTC - in response to Message 2081515.  

"pantographs – similar to those used by trains and trams".

No, they're not - as the photo shows, the closest parallel is the trolleybus. Two wires at opposite polarities, and no earth return. Drift a little out of lane, and you'll strike up a lovely light show. And forget junctions, rest areas, avoiding the breakdown in front...
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Message 2081604 - Posted: 4 Aug 2021, 20:07:16 UTC

Looks like the other idea to replace gas as the fuel for home heating and cooking and maybe for transport as well, Hydrogen H2 is not a good idea also.
'Hydrogen in the home would be four times more dangerous than natural gas': government report
Using hydrogen in the home would be about four times more dangerous than natural gas, according to a safety assessment conducted on behalf of the UK government.
The report, produced by engineering consultant Arup for the Department for Business Energy & Industrial Strategy’s Hy4Heat programme, found that the annual predicted number of gas explosions in UK homes would more than quadruple if natural gas were to be replaced by hydrogen — rising from nine to 39.
This would include an average of 25.6 kitchen explosions per year, and 13.8 “whole downstairs explosions”, compared to 5.7 and 3.3 for natural gas, respectively.
At the same time, the predicted number of individuals injured from domestic explosions would rise from 17 to 65, says the study, entitled Safety Assessment: Conclusions Report (Incorporating Quantitative Risk Assessment.


There are also the problems of transporting gas around the country, because nobody knows if the present pipes can be used. And even if they can be there will need to either lay more pipes or replace the present ones with larger diameter ones.
All those new 'smart meters', that cost £11 billion (£420/installation) will have to be replaced again. (Will also need new 'smart meters' if 3 phase mains is to made available for heat pumps.)

IMHO This is all a plan for the energy suppliers and the government to steal your hard earned pennies.
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Message 2081617 - Posted: 4 Aug 2021, 22:08:23 UTC - in response to Message 2081604.  

Is the addiction to electricity stronger than the addiction to tobacco? booze? heroin? meth? crack?
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Message 2081623 - Posted: 4 Aug 2021, 22:41:57 UTC - in response to Message 2081604.  
Last modified: 5 Aug 2021, 1:27:10 UTC

Thanks for that.

I've long had my reservations about using hydrogen as fuel in people's homes. Also for the problems of our present gas pipe infrastructure being far too leaky for such a light gas...

And yet!


... The UK government is now pushing ahead with domestic hydrogen heating demonstration projects.



Is there some dirty old fossil fuels industry oil money behind the push?...

We must have better options with larger, safer, more energy dense gas molecules?


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[edit: spelling]
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Message 2081634 - Posted: 5 Aug 2021, 1:00:24 UTC - in response to Message 2081623.  
Last modified: 5 Aug 2021, 1:01:01 UTC

We must have better options with larger, safer, more energy dense gas molecules?

Carbon? H2 is clean and you are implying we as a specie that we are not smart enough to figure it out.
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Message 2081647 - Posted: 5 Aug 2021, 3:08:58 UTC
Last modified: 5 Aug 2021, 3:09:32 UTC

And a further step in the skeptical mode. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/comment/electric-cars-far-environmental-free-lunch/
A recent road test of Volkswagen’s ID.4, the first global application of Europe’s largest car maker’s new electric vehicle platform, saw your correspondent drive 500 miles to Cornwall and back just a week after driving exactly the same journey in a turbodiesel estate car. The battery-fuelled journey wasn’t easy, with missing or malfunctioning charging stations and one farmer determined to lock the gate, trapping the charging VW in a field.
An afternoon with a calculator and a set of little-known Government figures for the greenhouse gas contribution of charging electricity showed that for this journey the battery-electric VW cost about 30 per cent more to purchase, and 30 per cent more to charge, than buying and fuelling an equivalent turbodiesel. And on an overall basis, it saved only about half the CO2 emissions.
...
It’s hard to swallow the impression that in subsidising second-car runabouts for the UK’s wealthy, the Government is ignoring the challenge and neo-imperialist tactics that will be required to secure the raw materials to build the number of batteries required to get to net zero.
In 2019 Richard Herrington, the Natural History Museum’s head of earth sciences, wrote to the Committee on Climate Change pointing out that to meet UK electric car targets will require the entire planet’s production of neodymium, three quarters of its lithium output and 12 per cent of its copper production, not to mention a 20 per cent increase in UK electricity generation.
Charities and environmental groups have started to notice, too. There are protests against the environmental damage from mining lithium, copper and plundering wind power in Chile, while the scandalous working conditions and child labour in artisanal cobalt mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo are still a dirty secret of the electric car industry.
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Message 2081843 - Posted: 7 Aug 2021, 21:34:40 UTC
Last modified: 7 Aug 2021, 21:36:49 UTC

An estimate for the cost of the networks of car chargers (£45.9 billion) and the upgrades to the electricity networks (£48 billion) has been published in the Telegraph. About £3,500/household on average.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/boris-johnsons-push-net-zero-plunged-chaos/

This is a cost not seen by Boris and will have to be added to the ~£5,000 extra for green cars, £10,000 for the cost of installing heat pumps, another £10,000 to improve home insulation including new triple glazing, as heat pumps don't heat as much as gas boilers and the costs of changing from gas to hydrogen for cooking, of which the costs are not known yet.
All to be completed by 2050.

So the extra costs for each household would be 3,500 + (3 * 5,000) +10,000 +10,000 + X,000 = 38.5 + x thousand/household over the next 28 years. assuming a new car every 10 years but that's probably an under estimate, and will certainly be more for families with more than one car.
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Message 2081860 - Posted: 8 Aug 2021, 4:45:19 UTC - in response to Message 2081843.  

An estimate for the cost of the networks of car chargers (£45.9 billion) and the upgrades to the electricity networks (£48 billion) has been published in the Telegraph. About £3,500/household on average.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/boris-johnsons-push-net-zero-plunged-chaos/

This is a cost not seen by Boris and will have to be added to the ~£5,000 extra for green cars, £10,000 for the cost of installing heat pumps, another £10,000 to improve home insulation including new triple glazing, as heat pumps don't heat as much as gas boilers and the costs of changing from gas to hydrogen for cooking, of which the costs are not known yet.
All to be completed by 2050.

So the extra costs for each household would be 3,500 + (3 * 5,000) +10,000 +10,000 + X,000 = 38.5 + x thousand/household over the next 28 years. assuming a new car every 10 years but that's probably an under estimate, and will certainly be more for families with more than one car.


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Message 2081872 - Posted: 8 Aug 2021, 11:35:18 UTC - in response to Message 2081860.  

An estimate for the cost of the networks of car chargers (£45.9 billion) and the upgrades to the electricity networks (£48 billion) has been published in the Telegraph. About £3,500/household on average.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/boris-johnsons-push-net-zero-plunged-chaos/

This is a cost not seen by Boris and will have to be added to the ~£5,000 extra for green cars, £10,000 for the cost of installing heat pumps, another £10,000 to improve home insulation including new triple glazing, as heat pumps don't heat as much as gas boilers and the costs of changing from gas to hydrogen for cooking, of which the costs are not known yet.
All to be completed by 2050.
That's at today's prices. We've had one increase back in April & now this
I was informed in April that the increase would be 31%. Doing a check for the whole month of June, found the increase to be 50% so decided to switch - so far it looks like the switch is in my favour as it is £7 a month cheaper until October. :-(
However the rep while discussing the costs could not believe our gas costs. Checked meter & still had close to 2 months credit remaining. Still have 1 month in credit. Reason for this low usage is triple glazing done in the summer of 2019. Very effective. Haven't needed heating since installation.
For the power companies, "pennies from heaven" will be meaningless for them as they laugh with each other on their golf courses.
2 days after the rep signed us up, receive an e-mail from supplier, "We notice that you haven't topped up your gas in over 4 months. If you are struggling to pay your bills, we can help.
WTF?
Are they really that dumb at the top?
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: Solutions #3


 
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