Ryzen - thinkg aloud allowed

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rob smith Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1984101 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 13:46:25 UTC

OK, my daily driver is showing signs of age :-(
It's based on an old AMD FX processor, and a pair of GTX1070ti.
No long ago a new hard disk was installed (the old one was making rude noises), & PSU (same again). It was last dust bunnied a couple of weeks back (I'm still sneezing from the evicted occupants).
It is still suffering unexplained stalls fairly regularly, stalls being typified by the screen just not responding or running very slowly and a task or two being trashed (mostly CPU tasks, but the odd one from the GPUs).
Now comes the question or three....
First thoughts are to replace the CPU & motherboard with a Ryzen 5 2400 or 2600, obviously I will need new RAM.
So - RAM - 16Gb 2666 in two by 8GB, or one by 16GB - which one will be the better in terms of CPU performance? (I think its the two by 8GB)
Next - I've got a nice shiny hard disk, with Windows 7 (64bit, Pro) and a couple of programs that won't run under Windows 10 (or WINE - and not for the want of trying). How easy is it to get Win 7 working on a Ryzen 5 2xxx? (I've heard all sorts of things, but most appear to be for new PCs, not picking up existing disks).

Or is it a case of trying it and then crying in my ale???
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Message 1984111 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 14:21:42 UTC - in response to Message 1984101.  
Last modified: 8 Mar 2019, 14:27:43 UTC

OK, my daily driver is showing signs of age :-(
[...]
It is still suffering unexplained stalls fairly regularly, stalls being typified by the screen just not responding or running very slowly and a task or two being trashed (mostly CPU tasks, but the odd one from the GPUs).

Sorry if already obvious...

For a long used old system, the obvious ones to always check are:

    * Clean everything out for dust and debris;
    * Are the fans still running at full speed ok?
    * PSU failing?
    * Loose or dirty connections?
    * Survives Memtest86+ and GIMPS primes torture test?
    * Survives graphics/display torture tests for the GPUs?
    * Mains supply ok?
    * OS crud accumulated causing randomness?
    * New updates causing silliness??



Just as an example, one of my systems from c2005 lost visibility of a network adapter card recently. I have other old PCI spares, but that particular MAC for that card ties into other networking configs... So, as a giggle to try to avoid a lot of reconfigs, I cleaned the gold contacts as best can be done with a rubber. Yep, they then looked less dull and dusty. Reboot and that system continues, otherwise untouched.

Sometimes, just unplugging connectors and replugging them back in can be enough to clean them (or properly break them!)...


Now comes the question or three....
First thoughts are to replace the CPU & motherboard with a Ryzen 5 2400 or 2600, obviously I will need new RAM.
So - RAM - 16Gb 2666 in two by 8GB, or one by 16GB - which one will be the better in terms of CPU performance? (I think its the two by 8GB)
[...]

Or is it a case of trying it and then crying in my ale???

Noooo... Ya cannae dilute a good ale! Nor any good whisky for that case either!! ;-)

You'll get higher memory bandwidth by using all of the memory channels, that's usually two or four channels depending on the motherboard and CPU. Hence if two memory channels are indeed supported, go for the x2 8GB memory DIMMs.


Hope of help and good luck!

Happy cool crunchin',
Martin
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Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1984116 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 15:07:59 UTC - in response to Message 1984101.  

... and a task or two being trashed (mostly CPU tasks, but the odd one from the GPUs).
Looking at a select few of the errored tasks (mostly GPU), they all show:

Exit status	194 (0x000000C2) EXIT_ABORTED_BY_CLIENT
called boinc_finish(0)
<message>finish file present too long</message>
The run time looks reasonable, and it seems like computation has completed and exited normally.

So I'd say CPU, GPU, RAM, motherboard are likely OK, but there might be a delay waking up the hard disk or finding a clean sector to write that file in.
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Message 1984119 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 15:20:49 UTC

2 sticks of ram will be better CPU performance as it will run them in dual channel mode.

Ryzen is very responsive to ram speed and bandwidth. So do the best you can afford if you care about the CPU performance.

Personally I don’t think it’s much worth the expense to make the CPU tasks run slightly faster. The GPUs are doing much more work, so the increase in production will be quite small in the larger picture. But if you just want to or use the system for something other than just SETI then go for it :)
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Message 1984122 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 15:25:47 UTC

Hmm - I'll have another look at the disk - as I say it's only a few months old so should still be under warranty.
Right royal pain if it is a disc going down unless I can do some sort of "good bits" ghost to get everything across to the new one.....
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Message 1984126 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 15:36:07 UTC - in response to Message 1984101.  

Next - I've got a nice shiny hard disk, with Windows 7 (64bit, Pro) and a couple of programs that won't run under Windows 10 (or WINE - and not for the want of trying). How easy is it to get Win 7 working on a Ryzen 5 2xxx? (I've heard all sorts of things, but most appear to be for new PCs, not picking up existing disks).


That is a great question. I think I remember Intel refusing to provide drivers for Win7 after a certain level of cpu but I am less certain about AMD.

I would decide on a MB (AM4) and then see what kind of drivers are available for Win7. Download them, get them onto a flashdrive as well as save the url. Then if the network card won't install, you have a chance of installing off a flashdrive.

Inspite of some of the verbage on the website for MS. Window 7 is still a free upgrade to Win10.

You can get first generation Ryzen 7's for a significant cost savings. Somewhat higher power useage and some of the neat performance things in the bios are missing but pretty much they are robust. Here, I have a MB and an AMD cpu laying around/uninstalled, you want them :)

Tom
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Message 1984131 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 15:56:27 UTC - in response to Message 1984122.  

Might not be the disc itself but the connection. A new sata cable does wonders sometimes.

I'm still sneezing from the evicted occupants
You sure it's not the common cold? Should I get some mouth covers and Dettol? 😉
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Message 1984139 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 16:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1984131.  
Last modified: 8 Mar 2019, 16:29:48 UTC

You should always populate all memory channels with the minimum number of RAM sticks. In the case of Ryzen's dual channel memory that would be two sticks. So you want 2 X 8GB sticks for total of 16GB of memory.

The problem with installing Windows 7 on AMD Ryzen,Intel Coffee or Kaby Lake cpus is that Windows doesn't have support for USB 3 ports on those motherboards that support those cpus on the Windows 7 installation media.

So it is rather hard to install it with no keyboard or mouse detected. The solution is to slip the USB 3 drivers into the installation media. Or to have the USB 3 drivers on a USB stick along with the regular Windows 7 CD media.

Gigabyte has a nice utility that puts the Windows 7 USB 3 drivers onto a USB stick so that they get picked up during Windows installation.

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/X470-AORUS-GAMING-7-WIFI-rev-10#support-dl-utility

The utility is on their support page for Windows 7 32 or 64 bit and is called "Windows USB Installation Tool
(Note) Support AMD X470/B450 series motherboards.

OS: Windows 7 64bit,Windows 7 32bit"
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Message 1984177 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 18:20:45 UTC - in response to Message 1984119.  

Personally I don’t think it’s much worth the expense to make the CPU tasks run slightly faster. The GPUs are doing much more work, so the increase in production will be quite small in the larger picture. But if you just want to or use the system for something other than just SETI then go for it :)
Food for thought on the CPU tasks...Bob, cherry-picking a few tasks you have validated, you are getting credit in the 90s for CPU tasks that take about 6000-7000 seconds to complete. My Ryzen 3 2200G can complete tasks for roughly the same credit in 4000-5000 seconds. Yes, it doesn't count as much as GPU tasks, but that still is a significant improvement. I am running 2x8 GB ram at 3200 MHz.

If you do happen to upgrade your computer, one more IMPORTANT thing to note with Ryzen: Not all chips support Windows 7! The Raven Ridge series (APUs, such as the 2200G and 2400G) do not support Windows 7. I found this out the hard way and had to go with Windows 10. I don't think this is an issue for the Pinnacle Ridge or Summit Ridge chips, but they might require some roundabout way of installing Windows 7 instead of just running it off of a stick or CD. I would look into this before making any decisions.
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Message 1984186 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 19:46:34 UTC

Thanks Bill, it's useful knowing which Ryzen to avoid.
Being my daily driver this particular PC runs much more than "just SETI", with the various crashes of recent weeks affecting other work, but BOINC does provide a useful diagnostic that a number of other programs don't (and all too often the Windows logs don't help very much).
Given Richard's earlier comments I think I'll try another new disk as that's the cheaper solution if it works.
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Message 1984202 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 22:03:18 UTC - in response to Message 1984116.  

Looking at a select few of the errored tasks (mostly GPU), they all show:

Exit status	194 (0x000000C2) EXIT_ABORTED_BY_CLIENT
called boinc_finish(0)
<message>finish file present too long</message>
The run time looks reasonable, and it seems like computation has completed and exited normally.

So I'd say CPU, GPU, RAM, motherboard are likely OK, but there might be a delay waking up the hard disk or finding a clean sector to write that file in.

One of my old systems used to get very occasional "finish file present too long" errors. It was an i7 2600k with 4GB RAM (almost 2GB was available) and a SSD. Shortly before the system died I determined the cause was the USB wireless dongle. I remembered Jason Gs frequent advise & ran a latency checker- the Wireless USB driver was causing occasional huge spikes in DPC latency. Time it just right and a WU got trashed.
Grant
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Message 1984209 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 22:25:57 UTC

Look this old threads maybe you find your answer.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=71543

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=83398

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=73704

I remember i had the same problem long time ago and somebody tell s me how to fix, just not remember what i do at the time. You kno old guy's forget everything.

Hope that helps
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Message 1984212 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 22:44:10 UTC

I still get them. Probably at least one a day on each host. But considering that is 1 out of 4000 a day, that is not too bad. I always wait for a task to finish and upload and wait a few more seconds before shutting down BOINC. I still get them and chalk it up to resource contention. Just consider it the cost of doing business and can't do much about it and accept it for what it is.
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Message 1984216 - Posted: 8 Mar 2019, 23:29:30 UTC - in response to Message 1984212.  

I still get them. Probably at least one a day on each host. But considering that is 1 out of 4000 a day, that is not too bad. I always wait for a task to finish and upload and wait a few more seconds before shutting down BOINC. I still get them and chalk it up to resource contention. Just consider it the cost of doing business and can't do much about it and accept it for what it is.

With my current systems I don't get them, but I've gotten in to the habit of exiting BOINC for 10+ seconds before restarting Windows to install updates.
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Message 1984258 - Posted: 9 Mar 2019, 8:45:12 UTC
Last modified: 9 Mar 2019, 8:48:13 UTC

Thanks guys. Since this problem is happening on things other than BOINC & when not running BOINC it's almost certainly nothing to do with BOINC, but the computer itself :-(
And reading around it would appear to be the disk (stupidly long boot times and random driver crashed for lots of things including the GPU all point to the disk.
So, until I get the time to do the move its a case of run it for a few hours in the evening when I'm home, thuis being shut down for most of the day...
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Message 1984345 - Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 4:04:22 UTC

I have a 2600 and ended up having to install Windows 10 because I could not get any mouse to work. Even with USB 2.0 mice.

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Message 1984359 - Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 6:19:42 UTC - in response to Message 1984345.  

Yes, even when plugging a USB 2.0 mouse into a native USB 2.0 port on the motherboard, Windows 7 still throws a fit when its installation probes the hardware and finds something strange it doesn't understand (the USB 3.0 hardware) and instead of gracefully ignoring it and moving on with the rest of the installation, it just throws in the towel and hangs or just quits.

You have to have the USB 3.0 drivers slipstreamed into the original Windows 7 media to get Windows 7 installed on Ryzen.
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Message 1984422 - Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 18:42:40 UTC - in response to Message 1984359.  

Yes, even when plugging a USB 2.0 mouse into a native USB 2.0 port on the motherboard, Windows 7 still throws a fit when its installation probes the hardware and finds something strange it doesn't understand (the USB 3.0 hardware) and instead of gracefully ignoring it and moving on with the rest of the installation, it just throws in the towel and hangs or just quits.

You have to have the USB 3.0 drivers slipstreamed into the original Windows 7 media to get Windows 7 installed on Ryzen.


I actually booted to the previous install of Windows 7 and it would not recognize the mouse or keyboard.

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Message 1984470 - Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 23:00:27 UTC
Last modified: 10 Mar 2019, 23:20:46 UTC

Talking about MSI, they have made quite a good job with their "Smart Tool" (included in their drivers DVD).
Only potential problem is a chicken and egg issue: you need to use a PC (or a virtual machine) with Win already installed to produce the slipstreamed WIN7 installation iso or media to boot from for the installation.
Apart from this, it works as intended and after understanding the rules of the game, installation was as usual.
Gone through that right in this hours by coincidence to get a copy of a just-in-case-Win7 installation on my new home PC (which is running under Kubuntu 99.99% of time).
I also received pop-up from Microsoft about the unavailability of updates on newest CPUs and I left them a note of "appreciation" in the comments about the joys of WIN10 and their pushy behavior toward it.

Happy crunching!

P.S.- As a matter of fact, I have yet not even tried to have the M2 SSD accessible from WIN7. I know there is a way, but I have not even searched for it. Actually, I really do like the fact that Win7 does not even know about the existence of that drive, where Linux and my main documents reside.
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Message 1984473 - Posted: 11 Mar 2019, 0:08:31 UTC - in response to Message 1984470.  
Last modified: 11 Mar 2019, 0:09:00 UTC

P.S.- As a matter of fact, I have yet not even tried to have the M2 SSD accessible from WIN7. I know there is a way, but I have not even searched for it. Actually, I really do like the fact that Win7 does not even know about the existence of that drive, where Linux and my main documents reside.
It knows. From the command prompt of W7 type diskpart then type list disk there it is!
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Message boards : Number crunching : Ryzen - thinkg aloud allowed


 
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