Well said Sarge.

Hi Sarge,
Long tine no see,
Glad you are back :)

Best Wishes,
byron - Democractic Socialist.

From WaPo which I know is a news source most of blocked out. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/05/what-is-socialism/?utm_term=.10731e9877a5

It is one place to start from.

What is socialism? | Fact Checker

Here's a guide for readers. (Meg Kelly/The Washington Post)
By Glenn Kessler
March 5

“Socialism is not about the environment, it’s not about justice, it is not about virtue. Socialism is about only one thing: It’s called power for the ruling class.”

— President Trump, speech at the Conservative Political Action Conference, March 2

“Under the guise of Medicare-for-all and a Green New Deal, Democrats are embracing the same, tired economic theories that have impoverished nations and have stifled the liberties of millions over the past century. That system is socialism.”

— Vice President Pence, speech at CPAC, Feb. 28

“I want you to put socialism on trial.”

— White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow, speech at CPAC, Feb. 27

Quick, is there a difference?

National Socialist German Workers’ Party
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
United Socialist Party of Venezuela
Democratic Socialists of America

All have the word socialist in their names, and President Trump and his allies apparently want Americans to believe there’s virtually little difference between the Nazis, the Soviet communists, the dictatorship of a crumbling Venezuela and the political organization linked to Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.).

But these are facile comparisons, ignorant of history. So here’s a simple guide for readers as the political rhetoric heats up. Polling indicates that, since the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, “socialism” increasingly sounds attractive to Americans as it has evolved for many to mean “equality” rather than state control of business.

Now, Trump is trying to make it sound scary again.
The Facts

Let’s start with the standard dictionary definition, derived from the original concept in the 19th century: “Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.”

Or as economic theorist Karl Marx put it more succinctly as a slogan in 1875: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”

That’s the economic theory, which emerged in reaction to the brutal working conditions of the Industrial Revolution, such as 16-hour work days and child labor. But in reality, the theory has been perverted and distorted by advocates and detractors. This allows politicians to assign the label “socialism” to just about any ideology.

Fascism, National Socialism (the Nazis) and Soviet Communism emerged as dictatorships that eventually ran aground because they were unsustainable. Fascists prioritized the state in a type of uber-nationalism, the Nazis were highly race-focused, and the Soviets focused on the class struggle, with the party in charge of economic and political life.

The causes for Venezuela’s downfall are complex, but they include a rupturing between the state and society, falling oil prices (and mismanagement of the state-owned oil company) and hyperinflation. But even if socialism failed there, it has worked relatively well in other countries, such as Peru and Bolivia. In fact, socialist presidents have been elected in every large South American country but Colombia.

Trump, on occasion, has tried to link the collapse of the Venezuelan economy to a broad condemnation of socialism. “In other words, the socialists have done in Venezuela all of the same things that socialists, communists, totalitarians have done everywhere that they’ve had a chance to rule,” he said in a speech to Florida International University on Feb. 18.

But, as in South America, socialist ideas have been adopted by other countries, even capitalist ones, without turning into dictatorships. In northern Europe, social democracies have, with varying degrees of success, tried to graft “socialist” programs, such as free college education, subsidized child care and universal health care, onto a thriving capitalist system. They may have single-payer health insurance, but it’s not free and requires payments.

So-called liberal socialism or social democracy is less of a top-down governing model but one in which demands for redistributing wealth emerge from the bottom up.

Trump’s Council of Economic Advisers, in a report in October warning against the appeal of socialism, argued that “Nordic country living standards are still at least 15 percent lower than in the U.S.” — a conclusion that was fiercely disputed by leaders in those countries.

“Unlike the United States, we have a good balance between freedom and community in Denmark. Yes, we pay a lot of tax, but we get so much back,” Danish Prime Minister Lars Loekke Rasmussen wrote on Facebook. “Our children get an education — no matter who you are and where you come from. … And if you become unemployed, run into problems or otherwise need a helping hand, then the community is ready to seize and help one back on the right track.”

In the United States, Social Security and Medicare might be viewed as having socialist roots, but the Democratic Socialists have made it clear that they are not simply “New Deal liberals.” In that way, they distinguish themselves from traditional Democrats.

“Our goal is not to rein in the excesses of capitalism for a few decades at a time — we want to end our society’s subservience to the market,” according to DSA member Meagan Day. She described “Medicare-for-all” as not socialism because it would “only nationalize insurance, not the whole health-care system.” She said Democratic Socialists eventually would want to move toward something like the British National Health Service.

The United Kingdom, of course, is still a capitalist country, with London one of the centers of the financial markets.

The DSA website, saying no country is fully socialist, suggests the organization would borrow from the best examples from around the world: “We can learn from the comprehensive welfare state maintained by the Swedes, from Canada’s national health care system, France’s nationwide childcare program, and Nicaragua’s literacy programs. Lastly, we can learn from efforts initiated right here in the US, such as the community health centers created by the government in the 1960s.”

Indeed, ideas once decried as socialist over time have become embraced by Americans.

In 1961, Ronald Reagan spoke out against creating Medicare. “One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine,” he told radio listeners, warning that doctors would lose their freedoms. He urged listeners to contact lawmakers to oppose the bill. “If you don’t, this program, I promise you, will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow; and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. Until, one day, as [then-Socialist Party leader] Norman Thomas said, ‘We will awake to find that we have socialism.’”

By the time Reagan became president 20 years later, Medicare was firmly established. He even cut a deal with Congress to raise taxes to implement the largest Medicare expansion in decades.

Of course, if the DSA ultimately succeeds in creating a British-style health system, some might argue that Reagan’s 1961 warning turned out to be prescient.
The Bottom Line

Be wary of politicians crying socialism. There is no one-size-fits-all label, given that a concept developed in the 19th century has morphed over time and evolved in successful and disastrous ways. Just because something has the word “socialist” in it does not necessarily mean it leads to dictatorship or economic ruin. (Ironically, given the intense animosity toward Trump in some parts of the country, his constant attacks might backfire and make it seem even more appealing to some Americans.)

To some extent, assertions about socialism fall in the realm of opinion, which is why we are not offering a Pinocchio rating at this time. But we will keep an eye on this rhetoric as the 2020 campaign unfolds, especially if there are broad-brush attacks that don’t really fit the candidate.

Thank you Nick for that copy and paste,
a good read :)
Best Wishes,
byron - Democractic Socialist.

10 Surprising People Who Advocated Socialism
https://listverse.com/2014/05/13/10-surprising-people-who-advocated-socialism/

“Socialism” is considered a dirty word in the United States. Being a hard-working, “free market” capitalist is a part of our national mythology. But it wasn’t always this way. The socialist movement used to be quite strong in the early 20th century. There was even a socialist candidate for president—Eugene V. Debs—who captured 6 percent of the vote in a four-way race in the 1912 presidential election. However, by the early 1920s, an all-out assault on socialists conducted by President Woodrow Wilson had successfully weakened the movement. Since then, people have associated socialism with the Soviet Union and government programs

thank you Moomin for your exelent post,

Mark Twain, American Author:



Mark Twain is best known for his books The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
and Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. However, especially towards the end of his life,
he took several radical views. He condemned capitalists as oppressors, saying,
“Who are the oppressors? The few: the King, the capitalist
and a handful of other overseers and superintendents.”
He considered himself to be “always on the side of the revolutionists”
because “there never was a revolution unless there were some
oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolute.”

He strongly supported labor unions and believed that there should
“be a more nearly equal division” of wealth.
He favored women’s suffrage and was opposed to slavery.
He was also a strong anti-imperialist.
He was vice president of the American Anti-Imperialist League,
which was opposed to the US annexation of the Philippines.
He condemned massacres committed by US forces in that country
as well as European colonial efforts in Africa.

Best Wishes,
byron - Democractic Socialist.

Not counting on staying long. Haven't looked a lot, but I see little has changed. Why stick around to have people deliberately twist my words?

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Hey SARGE:

I Continue to CONTROL YOUR EVERY Move; Thought; Action; Songs You Sing; EVERY ASPECT of Your Life.

ROTFLMMFAO

RUBEWorld: HARD WORKin' HANDs and SWEAT DRENCHED Bodies

OH OH OH OH OH So ORANGE YAPe

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Oh, delusional or an alternate reality?

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Not counting on staying long. Haven't looked a lot, but I see little has changed. Why stick around to have people deliberately twist my words?

Those people are not reachable, Don't worry about them. Ignoring them is the best course. Just do your best with the rest, because they are the ones who have and open mind and want to learn.

What's socialism anyway?
There’s lots of disagreement, even among socialists, about what constitutes socialism.
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/432768-mellman-whats-socialism-anyway

"Under Socialism/Social Democracy...

Did you mean "Democratic Socialism"? You've identified/agreed with Social Democracy before.

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Socialism is a Ruling Class centralizing control of the means of production into the Government which they also control.

You mean like our Nordic countries that practice "socialism"?
I wonder why there are so many billionares here then that have the means of production and not the Government.
https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/#4b3b3c91251c

Social Democracy: "A socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.

No, that's democratic socialism. Social democracy:

"Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and a capitalist economy."

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Socialism is called a straw man. It is defined as a failure which does not exist anywhere on the planet so that it can be railed against and all who don't believe in making the obscenely rich richer fit into it.

Keyword: originally. Any takers on what that means? :^p

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Socialism is a Ruling Class centralizing control of the means of production into the Government which they also control.

That definition is for countries like Russia, China and Venezuela.

Why American Sports Are Socialist,
And why European sports are not,
by - Derek Thompson is a staff writer at The Atlantic,
where he writes about economics, labor markets, and the media.
Jun 20, 2016.

America’s more capitalist sports fans commonly acknowledge that their country’s most popular sports, like the National Football League and the National Basketball Association, have several rules that would please a Scandinavian social democrat. Salary caps and luxury taxes limit how much each team can spend on players, punish those that over-spend, and close the gap between rich and poor teams. In both sports, the top draft picks typically go to the worst-performing squads from the previous year. Revenue sharing redistributes wealth among the rich and poor teams. Overall, success is punished by design, misfortune is rewarded by design, and the power of wealth is circumscribed with spending caps.

It’s a different story across the Atlantic, where many European soccer leagues have practices that would please an American conservative. There are few salary-cap rules, so a handful of rich teams tend to dominate annually. When a soccer team performs poorly, it’s not rewarded with a high draft pick. Instead the club is relegated to a less competitive league, a mighty blow to their revenue. Meanwhile the most successful teams from lower divisions are promoted to more competitive leagues where they can earn even more money.

read more here:

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/06/why-american-sports-are-socialist/487640/

American Sports are Privately Owned Capitalist Businesses banding together to increase their wealth. With the Capitalist's, not a Ruling Class Socialist Government, making the Rules. Nothing different from that of 19th Century Capitalist Trusts.

And European Sports (in Social Democratic countries as well) are Privately Owned Capitalist Businesses banding together to increase their wealth. With the Capitalist's, not a Ruling Class Socialist Government, making the Rules.
I'm excluding Russia of course.

After conflicting referenced definitions. Back to Topic.

Socialism is a Ruling Class centralizing control of the means of production into the Government which they also control.

Those that deny this are either fooling themselves or fooling others regarding their true beliefs.

@ Clyde, definitions are important.
Socialism is an economic system, period.
While studying economics at the university level no mention of "the ruling class" was mentioned in the definition of socialism, period.
You are injecting the phrase of "the ruling class" into your definition, which then becomes a political system, not an economic system.
You create you own definition and use it as a straw man to argue about.

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Let me here insert a very brief paragraph to point out one particular thing, and that is that Socialism does not propose to “abolish competition”— as many hasty and foolish antagonists declare. If the reader has gone through what has preceded this he will know that this is not so. Socialism trusts to competition, looks to competition for the service and improvement of the world. And in order that competition between man and man may have free play, Socialism seeks to abolish one particular form of competition, the competition to get and hold property— even to marry property, that degrades our present world. But it would leave men free to compete for fame, for service, for salaries, for position and authority, for leisure, for love and honour.

H. G. Wells. New Worlds For Old: A Plain Account of Modern Socialism

***********************************************************************

RUBEWorld LOVEs to COMPETE. However, NO WINNING. NO NO NO!!!!! ROTFLMMFAO!!!! LOVE LOVE LOVE

OH OH OH OH OH So ORANGE YAPe

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!