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Profile Lynn Special Project $75 donor
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Message 1975499 - Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 23:44:52 UTC

They have got to be kidding??

New atom smasher would be world's biggest by far
The proposed particle collider would be four times bigger and 10 times more powerful than the biggest particle
collider now in existence.

Seven years after experiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) — the world’s largest atom smasher — confirmed the existence of a mysterious subatomic particle known as the Higgs boson, physicists have drawn up plans to build an even bigger collider.

The Future Circular Collider (FCC) would be four times bigger and up to 10 times more powerful than the LHC, the European Organization for Nuclear Research (better known by its French acronym, CERN) announced in a report on Tuesday. An international consortium of 23 member nations, CERN operates the Large Hadron Collider and would run the FCC as well.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/huge-new-atom-smasher-would-be-world-s-biggest-far-ncna959071
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Message 1975509 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 0:23:12 UTC - in response to Message 1975499.  

Don't hold your breath:)
http:////en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Circular_Collider
The Large Hadron Collider at CERN with its High Luminosity upgrade is the world’s primary instrument for exploring the energy frontier until 2035. This defines the time window for preparing a post-LHC high-energy physics research infrastructure.
LEP and LHC have shown that a time-frame of 30 years is appropriate for the design and construction of a large accelerator complex and particle detectors. The significant lead time calls for a coordinated global effort. The goal is to ensure the seamless continuation of the world’s particle physics programme after the LHC era.
Designing the Future Circular Collider
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXgBzFAzDk
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Message 1975521 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 1:26:59 UTC - in response to Message 1975499.  

I think the U.S. was building a big circular tunnel like that under Texas at one time, and abandoned it.
The mind is a weird and mysterious place
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Message 1975541 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 4:45:49 UTC

China is planning a 100 km circular collider accelerating electrons and positrons. Proton colliders like LHC produce a lot of other particles since protons are made up from quarks.
Tullio
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Message 1975570 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 13:21:15 UTC
Last modified: 17 Jan 2019, 13:22:28 UTC

It makes one wonder why building 2 huge colliders.
One in China, the Circular Electron-Positron Collider CEPC, and one at CERN Europe, the Future Circular Collider FCC.
The CEPC was designed in collaboration with scientists from the U.S., Japan, and Europe, who will also be participating in its construction and operation.
Today CERN has 22 Member States: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Israel, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and United Kingdom.
Cyprus, Serbia and Slovenia are Associate Member States in the pre-stage to Membership. India, Lithuania, Pakistan, Turkey and Ukraine are Associate Member States.
Wouldn't it be better that China joined the CERN convention?
China is already in collaboration with scientists from the U.S., Japan, and Europe...

Anyway. Stories about the "risk" with huge colliders have already emerged:)
China’s Massive Particle Accelerator –“Could Create a Phase Transition That Rips the Very Fabric of Spacetime”
https://dailygalaxy.com/2018/10/chinas-massive-particle-accelerator-could-create-a-phase-transition-that-rips-the-very-fabric-of-spacetime/
The possibility is that quarks would reassemble themselves into compressed objects called strangelets. That in itself would be harmless. However under some hypotheses a strangelet could, by contagion, convert anything else it encounters into a new form of matter, transforming the entire earth in a hyperdense sphere about one hundred meters across –the size of a soccer field.
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Message 1975594 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 16:25:35 UTC - in response to Message 1975575.  
Last modified: 17 Jan 2019, 16:28:53 UTC

Hehe:) It's not the first time tabloid papers are spreading shock horror tales.
Already when the HLC started their experiments there where people who was worried that our Earth would be swallowed by a tiny black hole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXzugu39pKM
And in 1910 Halley's Comet:)

One of the substances discovered in the tail by spectroscopic analysis was the toxic gas cyanogen,[85] which led astronomer Camille Flammarion to claim that, when Earth passed through the tail, the gas "would impregnate the atmosphere and possibly snuff out all life on the planet."[86] His pronouncement led to panicked buying of gas masks and quack "anti-comet pills" and "anti-comet umbrellas" by the public.[87] In reality, as other astronomers were quick to point out, the gas is so diffuse that the world suffered no ill effects from the passage through the tail.[86]
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Message 1975634 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 20:44:17 UTC

I hesitate to to guess how many millions of dollars have been spent buying books that make spurious claims about scientific matters but only serve to add to the confusion of the general public and undermine their confidence in the scientific community. I guess that if spending the big bucks on building these super large colliders diverts the scientific community from experimenting on bigger and badder weapons we are better off. Not to mention that the money is spent to pay construction workers and engineering technicians to build the things. Many times I have pointed out that NASA and the other space agencies don't send those billions of dollars into space on top of their rockets, but rather spend the money to pay workers to build and operate them, And besides, they wouldn't spend the money on social programs anyway.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1975656 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 23:24:29 UTC - in response to Message 1975567.  

None of it will cure cancer, provide clean water, stop wars, recede global warming, prevent terrorism, the REAL problems on earth today.
Actually basic research like finding fundamental particles with particle colliders have helped to cure cancer to many patients.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron_emission_tomography
So far it haven't stopped wars but who knows?
There is lot of unknown out there to discover.
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Message 1975658 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 23:43:08 UTC - in response to Message 1975499.  

They have got to be kidding??

https://www.science20.com/tommaso_dorigo/scientists_left_behind-236179
The FCC is an ambitious project, and it is more or less at the edge of our reach with the currently available technology. Similarly to what has happened in the past, pushing the frontier of high-energy physics requires the development of new technology (in this case, among other things the mass production of superconducting magnets capable of field strength well above 10 Tesla). It is a win-win situation for society, as we not only going to improve our understanding of the world, but we at the same time are pushing the limits of our engineering, computing, and electronics skills. In other words, this is nothing else than the good-old, hard way of progressing and deepening our knowledge: by choosing to face new, harder challenges we improve ourselves.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUXuV7XbZvU
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Message 1975659 - Posted: 17 Jan 2019, 23:43:49 UTC - in response to Message 1975634.  

I guess that if spending the big bucks on building these super large colliders diverts the scientific community from experimenting on bigger and badder weapons we are better off.

Interesting angle, Bob. Good thought.
The mind is a weird and mysterious place
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Message 1975703 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 6:18:41 UTC

Unless they are looking for something they can weaponize from the products of the colliders.
Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.
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Message 1975723 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 9:54:28 UTC

The three greatest threats to world peace on Earth today are Russia, the USA, and China.
You forgot 2, overly negative people and Trumpettes. ;-)

Cheers.
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Message 1975727 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 10:47:41 UTC - in response to Message 1975722.  

Perhaps the real truth is that building these unneeded giant devices is that they provide jobs and income to hundreds of thousands of people. Engineers get paid to design them, workers get paid to excavate tunnels, others get paid to build the machines. The spin offs such as catering provision, first aid and welfare facilities, transport, protective clothing suppliers etc etc the list goes on and on. Everyone gets a slice of the pie. to build them, and later operate them.

The pie of course being ultimately provided by us the tax payer, who get no choice in the matter. And I object to it!
Who all pay tax, so which came 1st? The chicken or egg?
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Message 1975731 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 11:31:50 UTC - in response to Message 1975730.  

The conundrum for some may be that why are they spending my taxpayers money on something that I don't believe it should be spent on. But, I have a wife and family to support so I need the work.
Perfect example of the Chicken & Egg. If everyone on the planet thought like that, we'd still be stuck in the 1st rather than the 21st century.
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Message 1975740 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 12:20:14 UTC - in response to Message 1975738.  

In any case this is not applicable to what we are discussing, and off topic in a scientific thread talking about particle accelerators. If people want to discuss philosophy or moral dilemmas, they should start a thread in the Cafe.
Practice what you preach!
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Message 1975746 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 12:34:12 UTC
Last modified: 18 Jan 2019, 12:35:18 UTC

The Future Circular Collider (FCC) would be four times bigger and up to 10 times more powerful than the LHC, the European Organization for Nuclear Research (better known by its French acronym, CERN) announced in a report on Tuesday. An international consortium of 23 member nations, CERN operates the Large Hadron Collider and would run the FCC as well.


I'm sure I remember a scientist on the news back when they where looking for the Higgs Boson said " there's no point in building a bigger machine , if we can't find the Higgs particle with the LHC then we have to rethink our model " or something to the same effect .
They found the Higgs so what's the point of building a bigger machine for that stupid amout of money ??
I personally think certain people are sweating coz their " cash cow " is in danger of drying up and they'll have to find " proper work !!!! ( and they ain't capable of doing " meanial " jobs like the rest of us ) heads stuck up their " collectives " !!!
Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)
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Message 1975748 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 12:43:14 UTC - in response to Message 1975746.  

That may be so, but look back to the 30's & 40's. The scientists & engineers who worked on ENIAC & Colossus. Yes they were done to resolve particular issues, but look what arose from them. Further science & engineering which finally became useful 4 decades later.

The billions spent achieving that - was it wasteful? One cannot have success without failure.

Can just imagine all posters writing their comments on stone tablets. :-)
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Message 1975750 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 13:17:49 UTC - in response to Message 1975746.  
Last modified: 18 Jan 2019, 13:30:48 UTC

" there's no point in building a bigger machine , if we can't find the Higgs particle with the LHC then we have to rethink our model "
Is that remark really coming from a scientist?
The huge machines are needed to verify the Standard Model of physics and maybe rethinking it if the experiments don't comply with the theories.
So far the experiments have complied with the theories.
But there are lot of missing parts of the Standard Model still to be verified and that require bigger machines than LHC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
Although the Standard Model is believed to be theoretically self-consistent[2] and has demonstrated huge successes in providing experimental predictions, it leaves some phenomena unexplained and falls short of being a complete theory of fundamental interactions. It does not fully explain baryon asymmetry, incorporate the full theory of gravitation[3] as described by general relativity, or account for the accelerating expansion of the Universe as possibly described by dark energy. The model does not contain any viable dark matter particle that possesses all of the required properties deduced from observational cosmology. It also does not incorporate neutrino oscillations and their non-zero masses.

It's funny that the most familary fundamental physical interaction is Gravity and yet still not incorporated in the Standard Model and is a total mystery to scientist:)
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Message 1975752 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 13:36:09 UTC - in response to Message 1975748.  

That may be so, but look back to the 30's & 40's. The scientists & engineers who worked on ENIAC & Colossus. Yes they were done to resolve particular issues, but look what arose from them. Further science & engineering which finally became useful 4 decades later.

The billions spent achieving that - was it wasteful? One cannot have success without failure.

Can just imagine all posters writing their comments on stone tablets. :-)

There has to be many discoveries that waited years before someone else or technology caught up before a use was found. In my working life I came across two, "phase locked loops" and the "Sagnac Effect".
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Message 1975757 - Posted: 18 Jan 2019, 14:01:17 UTC - in response to Message 1975752.  

There has to be many discoveries that waited years before someone else or technology caught up before a use was found. In my working life I came across two, "phase locked loops" and the "Sagnac Effect".
Totally agree. Bit hard to do using stone tablets

Using the building blocks of the past to enhance the present & improve the future.
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