AMD A-2 thru A-10 and new AMD cpu/gpu integrated chips

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Message 1958304 - Posted: 3 Oct 2018, 23:35:47 UTC - in response to Message 1958226.  

I have a Windows 10 HP desktop with an A10-6700 running up to 4.18 GHz out of its 3.70 maximum. It has also a GTX 1050 Ti GPU board running SETI@home and Einstein@home GPU tasks. GPUGRID GPU tasks seem to overheat it (not overclocked) and they crash. The SETI@home screensaver, on CPU tasks, with the BREAKTHROUGH LISTEN stamp seems to cause reboots but no crashes of the tasks, which complete and validate.
There is a funny thing about the A10-6700: although sold as a 4 cores CPU, the Windows 10 Task manager says it has two cores and 4 logical processors, so only two BOINC tasks can run simultaneously.
Tullio


I also noticed the 2 physical/4 logical core labels in Task Manager when I installed my A8 APU. I looked it up at the time--AMD fabricates the CPU on these by placing two cores together in a "module" with some shared resources. Apparently, Task Manager cannot interpret this configuration properly. Your chip contains four physical cores.

I agree with Tom: the reboots certainly sound like a symptom of overheating, especially because the chip is overclocked. The SETI@Home screensaver displays some 3D graphics which may engage the GPU enough to push the chip beyond its thermal safety threshold. I experienced a couple of reboots when I first used my APU in a cheap, low-profile case with poor airflow. APUs seem to be very sensitive to heat, particularly the higher-TDP desktop models which spike in temperature rapidly when running any non-trivial load. You probably want to consider upgrading the cooler and/or case to keep the APU overclocked without damaging it.
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Message 1958307 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 0:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 1958295.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2018, 0:47:16 UTC

If you can map that to Seti processing, it appears that we can't even come close to discrete video card performance. It would probably still require someone who has either a 2200G or 2300G that have been running at optimum processing speed to see what kind of RAC's each could post.

I wonder whether the integrated GPU also interferes with CPU performance on newer Ryzen APUs as we've been discussing here. It seems like most of the evidence discourages building a new APU system--for Seti crunching, at least--if you can afford a few extra bucks for dedicated graphics.


By the way, process_priority_special doesn't seem to work for Seti GPU tasks on my Windows machines as it does in Linux. The Seti tasks always start with a "below normal" priority. The directive does work for Einstein@Home GPU tasks, though. Maybe it's a bug...
Rats. The A4-5000 is a windows machine and I have no plans to run Linux on it.

I do have another APU out on loan. Its a little bit higher AMD. Need to get it started.

Tom
I now have disabled the app_config.xml which allows the gpu to use whatever the default is for the amount of cpu power needed to run the gpu task (it is tiny). I still have 1 core/thread idled on a 4 core/thread cpu. I still have the cc_config.xml paremeter in there.
We will see what happens. I think the last time I ran this A4-5000 with the default cpu driving the gpu number the speed of the gpu processing was near 8 hours. So lets see :)

Tom


Tom, we can verify that the process_priority_special directive works for Seti (it doesn't for me) by right-clicking the "setiathome..." process in the "Details" tab of Task Manager and checking what it shows under "Set priority". If it shows the default value of "Below normal" instead of "Above normal", the directive did not have an effect. We can change it there manually, of course, but we'd need to do it every time a new task starts, which just isn't feasible.

Here's a PowerShell workaround I fiddled with that automatically sets the priority of Seti GPU tasks to "above normal". It checks every minute for when a new GPU task starts. Paste it into a PowerShell window, and press Ctrl-C to cancel it:

while ($true) { Get-Process setiathome_*_opencl_* | %{ $_.PriorityClass = 'AboveNormal' }; Start-Sleep 60 }
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Message 1958314 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 0:55:23 UTC
Last modified: 4 Oct 2018, 0:59:24 UTC

I've installed the 1809 Windows 10 upgrade. Funnily, my GTX 1050 Ti is now running a GPUGRID GPU task with core temperature 74 C, fan speed 66%, core clock 1683 MHz. It is the first GPUGRID GPU task seeming to run. On my Linux box with a GTX 750 Ti graphic clock is 1202 MHz and temperature 57 C, fan speed 43%, also on GPUGRID.
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Message 1958390 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 17:28:07 UTC

After the Windows 1809 upgrade and a failure, I have installed the nVidia 411.70 driver and it works. Next task was completed and validated.
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Message 1958416 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 21:01:53 UTC - in response to Message 1958390.  

After the Windows 1809 upgrade and a failure, I have installed the nVidia 411.70 driver and it works. Next task was completed and validated.
Tullio


That is great news!

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Message 1958418 - Posted: 4 Oct 2018, 21:05:06 UTC

While I did start this thread with the integrated AMD CPU/gpu in mind, I did run across something that might sorta qualify. At least in a hybrid way. How about an integrated Intel CPU with a Vega gpu from AMD?

https://www.pcgamer.com/intels-team-up-with-amd-produces-the-fastest-integrated-graphics-ever/

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Message 1958644 - Posted: 5 Oct 2018, 20:59:36 UTC - in response to Message 1958418.  
Last modified: 5 Oct 2018, 21:05:05 UTC

Wowza...

...with 1,536 streaming processors clocked at up to 1190MHz, plus the dedicated 4GB HBM2 stack...
...for an integrated "mobile" GPU. I'm impressed.

The $1000-$2000 price for these NUC boxes is a little scary, though, but they do seem to pack in a lot of high-end components. Doesn't look like they have a mass-market DIY chipset yet. Dell's Kaby Lake-G gaming laptop is pretty tempting.

I'm particularly interested in the power efficiency of the system (I like to build efficient, low-wattage computers). According to that article, the NUC stayed within 100 W under load, which is about 15 W less than my APU desktop (according to my measurements), for roughly four to eight times the total performance (based on my brief, non-scientific comparison of other people's CPU and GPU benchmarks for each system).

I likey.
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Message 1958652 - Posted: 5 Oct 2018, 21:26:31 UTC

I still want to glue a Threadripper2 and a Vega 64 together on one chip.

What? What do you mean the heat it produces would be easier created in a microwave oven?

I simply don't understand why they keep complaining about the globle warming being generated by the Amazon and Google data centers :)


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Message 1958654 - Posted: 5 Oct 2018, 21:36:43 UTC

I got my A6-7310 with R4 gpu back from where I loaned it out to.

And after a clean re-install of Windows 10, an install of basic Seti and an upgrade to the latest graphics drivers from AMD it is "crunching" along.

It is running 3 cpus and 1 gpu. And so far, it looks like the cpu's are crunching slower than the A5 5000 cpu's are.

It is a 4 core cpu chip with a baseline of 2Ghz (vs. 1.6Ghz for the A5) and it allegedly will run upto 2.4Ghz.


So far the cpu's are running throttled back down at around 59%. It makes me wonder just how slow they would go if I had all 4 cores active. :)

The gpu appears to be running mostly at 100%.

I am waiting for a baseline before I add the command line and/or the cc_config.xml parameter in there.

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Message 1959025 - Posted: 7 Oct 2018, 6:08:02 UTC - in response to Message 1958652.  

I still want to glue a Threadripper2 and a Vega 64 together on one chip.

What? What do you mean the heat it produces would be easier created in a microwave oven?

I simply don't understand why they keep complaining about the globle warming being generated by the Amazon and Google data centers :)

Tom

Hah, I'd love to see that beast. The socket size is already comically huge without a GPU. Here's your cooler.

I got my A6-7310 with R4 gpu back from where I loaned it out to.

That poor machine seems to struggle to keep up with the A4-5000 despite the higher max frequencies on the CPU and GPU and a newer architecture. They're both operating around 15 W TDP, so I can't imagine that we'll see a drastic difference in performance, though the higher GPU clock on the A6 may throttle the CPU to a greater degree to balance power consumption (it seems the PowerTune feature controls this).

Is this a laptop? Apparently the A6-7310 also has a "skin" temperature sensor that throttles performance when the surface temperature of the case warms up despite perfectly safe internal temps. My Surface tablet does this too--supposedly to mitigate any perception by the consumer that their device overheats (thus reducing criticism and product support burden). Simply thermal-taping a heatsink to the exterior top-right corner on the back of the tablet's chassis actually reduces quite a chunk of the observed throttling under heavy load.
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Message 1959030 - Posted: 7 Oct 2018, 6:52:15 UTC - in response to Message 1958418.  

Couldn't resist...I ordered one of them snazzy Kaby Lake-G NUCs as part of a bundle with some RAM. I already have a spare M2 SSD key for it. My wife will get some game time on that box for sure, at least.

Looks like it actually has two GPUs--the Vega M in addition to Intel's standard integrated GPU offering. I'm curious to find out whether the system will sustain load to the CPU and both GPUs without throttling one of them like we're seeing with the APUs. I'll post findings when I get it crunching.
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Message 1959045 - Posted: 7 Oct 2018, 9:23:56 UTC

i find this one wingman , good results indeed

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=8518624
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Message 1959152 - Posted: 7 Oct 2018, 23:09:21 UTC - in response to Message 1959030.  
Last modified: 7 Oct 2018, 23:09:58 UTC

Couldn't resist...I ordered one of them snazzy Kaby Lake-G NUCs as part of a bundle with some RAM. I already have a spare M2 SSD key for it. My wife will get some game time on that box for sure, at least.

Looks like it actually has two GPUs--the Vega M in addition to Intel's standard integrated GPU offering. I'm curious to find out whether the system will sustain load to the CPU and both GPUs without throttling one of them like we're seeing with the APUs. I'll post findings when I get it crunching.


So far nearly "all" Intel Internal gpu's slow down the entire system when they are used. We have a couple of people who are using the very latest Intel gpu's with discrete GPUs and apparently those don't slow the system down.

If I am reading the numbers right, the gpu system you just ordered will have the performance of about a Gtx 1050 which isn't half bad. (From reading about it on the "GPU Z" database.)

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Message 1959153 - Posted: 7 Oct 2018, 23:12:13 UTC - in response to Message 1959045.  

It looks to me like the system you just ordered is the very fastest APU-type system on the market. If I am reading it right, it is a 4 core with HT cpu plus the VegaM XT gpu.

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Message 1959302 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 19:21:57 UTC - in response to Message 1959045.  
Last modified: 8 Oct 2018, 19:22:09 UTC

i find this one wingman , good results indeed

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=8518624

Thanks for that...it really doesn't look too shabby. It seems like he is running the integrated Intel GPU along with the Vega M. The overall production certainly doesn't stand up to even just one of the newer dedicated NVidia GPUs by itself, but the entire system uses less than half the power of one of these graphics cards so I'm not surprised.
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Message 1959306 - Posted: 8 Oct 2018, 20:19:18 UTC - in response to Message 1959152.  
Last modified: 8 Oct 2018, 21:05:10 UTC

Couldn't resist...I ordered one of them snazzy Kaby Lake-G NUCs as part of a bundle with some RAM. I already have a spare M2 SSD key for it. My wife will get some game time on that box for sure, at least.

Looks like it actually has two GPUs--the Vega M in addition to Intel's standard integrated GPU offering. I'm curious to find out whether the system will sustain load to the CPU and both GPUs without throttling one of them like we're seeing with the APUs. I'll post findings when I get it crunching.
So far nearly "all" Intel Internal gpu's slow down the entire system when they are used. We have a couple of people who are using the very latest Intel gpu's with discrete GPUs and apparently those don't slow the system down.

If I am reading the numbers right, the gpu system you just ordered will have the performance of about a Gtx 1050 which isn't half bad. (From reading about it on the "GPU Z" database.)

Tom

Tom, I played around a bit with my Surface and the results give me hope that I can use the Intel GPU in the NUC box for some meaningful crunching. By adjusting voltage and managing heat like I did with my desktop APU, I can push the tablet up to its max performance. I think the tweaks will work for the AMD mobile APU systems in your laptops as well.

Before modification, I could only run one CPU and GPU task at the same time before the chip throttled. First, I undervolted the CPU and GPU enough to eliminate the power-level throttling in the system. As described in my previous posts, I used the PowerShell command to prioritize the Seti GPU process (to keep the GPU fed), and I also needed to keep the skin temperature at the chassis sensor cool enough that the tablet doesn't throttle because it thinks it feels too hot to the touch (I found an interesting illustration of this behavior). Now, the tablet doesn't just run at max frequency on all four cores, it sustains turbo clock speeds on the CPU and GPU indefinitely.

I used Intel's XTU software to tweak the voltage. I believe AMD's Overdrive program should work similarly for APU systems. The internal CPU/GPU temperature never exceeds 65 C, and the tablet has been crunching under this load for about a day without any stability issues. I think there's room to undervolt the CPU or GPU some more, but I stopped when the combined speed plateaued. Incredible how much of a safety margin they build into the system...


It looks to me like the system you just ordered is the very fastest APU-type system on the market. If I am reading it right, it is a 4 core with HT cpu plus the VegaM XT gpu.

Just to differentiate the Kaby Lake-G architecture from the other APUs we've been discussing:

Further reading suggests that this one doesn't really count as an APU, at least for the Vega M component. The Vega GPU is more like an embedded PCIe dedicated GPU and communicates with the CPU over a standard PCIe x8 bus. It doesn't share the memory bus with the CPU like our other APUs, so we don't get HSA optimizations like zero-copy pointer passing.

The standard Intel GPU in this box makes it more of an "APU" than the Vega M, but maybe the Vega component has some APU-like characteristics, like sharing power budget and heat dissipation. We'll see...
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Message 1959343 - Posted: 9 Oct 2018, 0:39:43 UTC - in response to Message 1959306.  
Last modified: 9 Oct 2018, 0:41:26 UTC

While I might want to tweak, Neither of my bio's support that. I have an HP running AMD and a Lenovo running AMD.

I haven't tried downloading the AMD tweaking software to see if I can. Another project :)

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Message 1959495 - Posted: 10 Oct 2018, 10:54:03 UTC - in response to Message 1959343.  

While I might want to tweak, Neither of my bio's support that. I have an HP running AMD and a Lenovo running AMD.

I haven't tried downloading the AMD tweaking software to see if I can. Another project :)

Tom


Both of my APU's are installed in Laptops. The AOD that I downloaded announced that they were either not AMD cpus or could not be overclocked :)
Oh, well. They already get reasonably warm.

I am trying out the "<project_max_concurrent>3</project_max_concurrent>" to see if that effects the computing differently on the systems.

Another difference I have noticed is the utility CPU-Z doesn't display a "memory manager load" when it displays everything else.

I suspect the 8th gen with RX Vega M graphics both will have a memory manager (since it communicates via PCex bus) and be less coupled to the CPU. The catch is it still has to use some kind of memory bus to access the MB memory for storage that external discrete GPU would have on its own card.

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Message 1959496 - Posted: 10 Oct 2018, 11:00:20 UTC

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryzen there is a "Ryzen 5 Pro 2400G" that has a slightly higher clock rate than the Ryzen 5 2400G but appears to be using the same Vega 11.

My impression is that none of the other Ryzen or Threadripper cpu's have any internal gpu components.
That is interesting because it seems like only the Intel Xeon cpu's don't have internal gpu's. It seems like all the mainstream cpus do and maybe the enthusiast (aka: K?) also do.

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Message 1959576 - Posted: 10 Oct 2018, 20:21:44 UTC - in response to Message 1959495.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2018, 20:22:31 UTC

Both of my APU's are installed in Laptops. The AOD that I downloaded announced that they were either not AMD cpus or could not be overclocked :)
Oh, well. They already get reasonably warm.

Ah, that's too bad. If you have the time and feel like tinkering, you can try the AmdMsrTweaker tool that I linked to early in this thread. The post describes how I undervolted my APU by adjusting the P-States, which I found effective even though my BIOS is locked.


I am trying out the "<project_max_concurrent>3</project_max_concurrent>" to see if that effects the computing differently on the systems.

I don't think you'll see much of an improvement (if it even works for Seti on your machine) because you're already reserving an entire core for the GPU. Increasing the GPU process priority mostly helped when all my cores were fully-loaded with CPU tasks. This tells the OS to run the GPU task on the core first, and use any leftover CPU time for lower-priority stuff. I get a bit more CPU production without sacrificing GPU performance.


Another difference I have noticed is the utility CPU-Z doesn't display a "memory manager load" when it displays everything else.

I suspect the 8th gen with RX Vega M graphics both will have a memory manager (since it communicates via PCex bus) and be less coupled to the CPU. The catch is it still has to use some kind of memory bus to access the MB memory for storage that external discrete GPU would have on its own card.

Looks like the Vega M gets 4 GB of it's own physical 1024-bit-wide HMB2 memory. I don't think it shares system memory with the CPU. I too don't get any reading for "Memory Controller Load" in GPU-Z for my APU either. I'll see what happens with the Vega M in a few days.


My impression is that none of the other Ryzen or Threadripper cpu's have any internal gpu components.
That is interesting because it seems like only the Intel Xeon cpu's don't have internal gpu's. It seems like all the mainstream cpus do and maybe the enthusiast (aka: K?) also do.

I typically see low- to mid-range motherboards ship with onboard video chipsets. For example, boards for Athlon/Phenom/FX series processors tend to have a low-end Radeon HD-something soldered onto it to support the board's included high-res video-out port. Gaming motherboards seem to omit the integrated graphics and port with the expectation that the builder will add their own high-end GPU. Recent Intel processors include integrated graphics like they do VRMs to normalize performance and reduce cost, size, complexity, and power consumption for mass-market systems, but older Intels needed onboard video or a discreet GPU as well.
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