All this waste of electrons, it was Annie who said playing was politicizing.

BTW NHL rules require one to be played, there is one team that always plays both. http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20848575/rules-national-anthem-differ-sports-leagues

As there aren't many American persons of strongly pigmented skin playing ice hockey I wouldn't expect many players to have brothers that have been gunned down by the police for having strong skin pigmentation.

Methinks and they state they are protesting institutional racism, and the data readily validates their claims.

Which data? If your a referring to 'data' that suggests that there is a disproportionate number of blacks killed by police officers than whites....then you are just ignorantly wrong.

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Mopar, or NO car.

I find it incredible that some of those from the great land of so called freedom wish to stop some others from expressing their right to that so called freedom.

Hypocrites is what they always turn out to be.

As long as they continue to scar and tear the fabric of the symbol of this great nation, over an issue that does not exist( blame it on my whiter privilege), then I will continue to ridicule them for it. I could care less abut their 'injustice".
Quit attacking police and other innocents, and maybe your chances of being shot, BY POLICE, will decrease.
Now if you live in rat-infested crap heap like Chicago, well....best of luck to ya. Im sure those liberal gun laws will do some good some day..

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Mopar, or NO car.

I could care less abut their 'injustice".

Plainly obvious.

Methinks and they state they are protesting institutional racism, and the data readily validates their claims.

Which data? If your a referring to 'data' that suggests that there is a disproportionate number of blacks killed by police officers than whites....then you are just ignorantly wrong.

You are entitled to your own opinion not your own facts unless you live in an alternate universe.

More white people are killed in police shootings than black Americans, but overall white people are statistically less likely to be killed by police than black people.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/

Blacks made up 13% of the population. However, in 2015 they accounted for 26% of those that were killed by police,

https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/police-killing-of-blacks/

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Methinks and they state they are protesting institutional racism, and the data readily validates their claims.

Which data? If your a referring to 'data' that suggests that there is a disproportionate number of blacks killed by police officers than whites....then you are just ignorantly wrong.

You are entitled to your own opinion not your own facts unless you live in an alternate universe.

Unless you would like to submit to us your 'data', and proof of its validity and authenticity, you are in the exact same universe.

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Mopar, or NO car.

Unless you would like to submit to us your 'data', and proof of its validity and authenticity, you are in the exact same universe.

I just did by editing the post you were responding to.

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Methinks and they state they are protesting institutional racism, and the data readily validates their claims.

Which data? If your a referring to 'data' that suggests that there is a disproportionate number of blacks killed by police officers than whites....then you are just ignorantly wrong.

The data says that a disproportionate number of Blacks killed by police in 2017.
Total white population ~200,000,000, killed by police 457, per capita 0.2285
Total black population ~40,000,000, killed by police 223, per capita 0.5575

So for every two White persons killed by police, there are five Blacks killed, as per size of populations and three Hispanics..

From here

it was Annie who said playing was politicizing.

erm... yes ... it was. I probably should have also made some effort to explain why. There's a sort of explanation in teeny writing at the end of this post, for those interested enough to read it.*) For those who are not - in brief... I'm a bit lacking in personal experience of symbols of national identity that haven't had political overtones to them, and so find myself more of an onlooker than a participant when I see others who aren't so afflicted. Consider me national-identity disabled if you like :)

Anyway, @this: I've left out a bit from your post (quoted below) Clyde because I couldn't think of a single thing to say in response to it. I'm not sure I understood the question. I hope you don't mind? I will answer the remaining one though, and it might help if I were to explain my view on flags and anthems too.

In short - they only give me the warm fuzzies in a very, very few circumstances. I can get behind and believe in the appropriateness of a country's flag and anthem at international sporting events but it doesn't stop me from knowing that, if we take the Union Jack for example, that it just happens to be one of the planet's national-flags that's wrought misery on many a far flung nation - and that as such it might thoroughly get up someone's nose somewhere. And whilst I would much prefer it not to be seen in that way at a sporting event. I can understand why it might.

So maybe I need someone from the USA to explain to me what I don't understand... which is what it feels like to hear your anthem and see your flag flying at a regional sports event and if it genuinely feels like it has nothing to do with politics. What does it mean to you? Does it make you all feel closer to one another despite the fact that you're otherwise divided along the lines of which team decked out in its battle colours uniform you're supporting during the clash ahead? I tried to ask the internet, but I didn't get far because most seemed to be discussing international competitions.

Do those supporting political views at a Sporting Event believe [...]

I don't believe politics has any place in sport. I actually think most of us here probably agree on that. But I understood why there was a boycott/ban of South Africa from international sporting events, and I supported the principles behind it. I can also understand why some of your sportsmen and women feel that a lacking element of equality before officers of the law, if expressed in front of yours (and their) flag and during your anthem, is a message they feel should be heard in a nation whose constitution has acknowledged them that right. There are a lot more disrespectful things they could do than kneeling and/or not singing, in my view.

[Do those supporting political views at a Sporting Event] believe the following is appropriate:

Player's, in their team's uniform, chanting and gesticulating "Trump is Great" or "Trump Sucks" in front of the crowd?

I missed that news. Was that during the anthem? What on earth would make them do that unless they fancied being pelted with stadium furniture then being carried off on stretchers?

*(I think it's because I am an earthling before I am an anything else - including human ;) That might, in part, be because my arrival on this planet did not bestow on me the right to a national flag of my very own to covet, or feel inspired by.

The place I was born required at least one of my parents to have been born there first. An understandable requirement in the circumstances and whilst I proudly display that flag beneath my avatar, my being born there sadly did not give me citizenship - but does, both my children, should they ever wish it. A lot of moving from country to country as a child did not give me the time to become a naturalised citizen of any until South Africa when I was a teen - ultimately might have - if I'd pledged allegiance to their flag - and the apartheid system it represented. I was not inclined to. But every school morning - I'd line up dutifully early (before lessons started); for the raising of that flag; and then stand respectfully for the duration of the national anthem; and even sing it in both English; and Afrikaans - because if I didn't, it was an automatic two hour detention after school, for each infringement of those five requirements. It felt oppressive. I did not feel comfortable with it at all. It felt like a betrayal of my own values and beliefs. Not a good introduction to nationalism and flags and anthems - but a doddle compared to the oppression experienced by others with deeper skin tones than my own.

And that wariness of national "idolatry/indoctrination" is not the end of my peculiarities regarding flags and anthems either. Despite the efforts of one British government to remove second-generation rights to their colonial outpost citizens - some of us, they found, they could not render stateless because they could not backdate their shiny new law. So I am allowed to be considered British because both my parents are/were English born and bred - but I'm under no illusions that it was anything more than a grudging admittance due to a "loophole" they would much rather have not had to leave lying about the place for the likes of myself and others. I am grateful though :) Enormously so... but it's not exactly a form of citizenship where you feel ... embraced. Also, there are many issues on which I struggle to feel particularly proud of my British heritage. But none of us are perfect - so I accept it's unreasonable of me to expect perfection from any government, and any country anywhere, including "my own".)

It's just occurred to me that the chanting and whatnot you referred to there was hypothetical, Clyde. Apologies if it was.

I could care less abut their 'injustice".

Plainly obvious.

And showing the rest of us where the root of the problem really lies. :-(

I could care less abut their 'injustice".

Well, it's good that you do care. 😀

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I could care less abut their 'injustice".

Plainly obvious.

And showing the rest of us where the root of the problem really lies. :-(

OHHHHHH so its MY fault that a group of black teens decide to go steal a car, then get into a pursuit with police....then when they are caught, one of them fires a gun at police, and ends up dead. GOTCHA
Everyone is posting all of these links about the disproportionate kill ratio....
id like to see some reliable facts concerning the ratio of white and blacks when it comes to the types of crimes being committed, AND the cities and towns where those crimes are being committed.

If more blacks are being killed, then there is a chance that more blacks are committing crimes.
Yes there are some 'bad shoots'. but not a disproportionate amount.
\Also, ignorant clowns like Sharpton and J Jackson don't care about innocent whites getting murdered by police, because it doesn't help them spread their message.

ive been state and federal law enforcement for a combined 12 years now. Ive been on the street side, and the institutional side.
its sad, seeing all these people who sit at home and use the web as their guiding light for their fight against social 'injustice'

But yeah. Its my fault I wonder what the ratio of black murdering blacks is to other races?
So already we had 13 dead in 2 days in Chicago. Anyone have any comparable stats from major cities?
NY? LA? Phoenix? Denver? Cincy?

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Mopar, or NO car.

themoj0 if what you posit about blacks committing more crimes were true I would ask what institutional factors do you think were causing that or do you think it is racial?

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My apologies. I got interrupted before clicking "post reply" and then completely messed up by clicking too close to the "x" on the tab containing my post. Y-e-e-s :/ wiped it clean off the face of the earth I did. I have tried to resurrect something of it :) although it may be a little hastily done and less well thought out (if it was ever that to start with - which I can't entirely assure anyone it was).

themoj0. Hello :) May I ask a question?

Here you used this term:

they continue to scar and tear the fabric of the symbol of this great nation

What I'm left wondering, is how? A great nation - if indeed a truly great one - is not that vulnerable. If it is - then I'm interested in how you measure greatness, because I think - of everyone in this thread - you might be the one most able to answer my query from earlier.

Clyde's answer (here) was this *wave to Clyde*:

Perhaps it is what a Country and its people aspire to. Be it Freedom of Speech, Association, Press, etc.

All Countries and humans have committed actions they hopefully regret. But as with a successful marriage. You still love the imperfect human you married.

Okay. That's interesting. I wonder if I draped my other half in the Union Jack it might help me see that ;) Thanks.

You used the word "aspire". I like it. It suggests a work-in-progress that's still got room for improvement. Looking round the planet - there's a lot of that, I think, but positive changes can't happen if flaws are not brought into the open for reasoned debate and discussion. I don't know if anyone has asked the "offending players" whether they love their country. I'm sure they do, but if they have doubts that their country may not entirely reciprocate that - communicating it in the manner currently under discussion is one way of doing so peacefully. I think so - yet it's being treated as inflammatory somehow, and that is what puzzles me.

I can understand the National Anthem being played at finals, but every game? Why?

@aiine, I suspect seeing the flag and hearing the anthem played means different things to different people. For instance to a white southerner he swells with pride at the subjugation his country has forced upon others despite the fact he flies the confederate flag on a flag pole in front of his house, a symbol of a treasonous government. For an immigrant he swells with the promise the USA offers in freedom from subjugation it offers people. For many it is just a duty, stand and take off the hat put the hand over the heart and wait for a game to start. For some it brings back the horrors of sending family members off to be slaughtered in needless wars.

Perhaps this will help understanding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40JmEj0_aVM

themoj0. Hello :) May I ask a question?

Here you used this term:

they continue to scar and tear the fabric of the symbol of this great nation

What I'm left wondering, is how? A great nation - if indeed a truly great one - is not that vulnerable.

UNLESS the country, committing its greatest blunder, appoints a 'leader" who is more interested in not offending anyone, and apologizing at every turn, for 8 agonizing years.
They want to disrespect the very symbol that gives you the right( and choice)to disrespect it..knock it out.
They have options, or choices, that will gain more attention, and serve the same purpose, without tarnishing the memory of past veterans, and those still around...but that's their choice. And thankfully I have the right to ridicule them for their poor choice.

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Mopar, or NO car.

@aiine, I suspect seeing the flag and hearing the anthem played means different things to different people. For instance to a white southerner he swells with pride at the subjugation his country has forced upon others despite the fact he flies the confederate flag on a flag pole in front of his house, a symbol of a treasonous government. For an immigrant he swells with the promise the USA offers in freedom from subjugation it offers people. For many it is just a duty, stand and take off the hat put the hand over the heart and wait for a game to start. For some it brings back the horrors of sending family members off to be slaughtered in needless wars.

Perhaps this will help understanding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40JmEj0_aVM

I agree with this in part.
My grandfather served in the NAvy during WW2
my dad was career Air Force and retired full bird.
I was career Army, serving in Iraq 14 months
And my son is finishing his first year in Korea in the Army.
So yeah, for me, its a little more than a game time ritual.

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Mopar, or NO car.

So yeah, for me, its a little more than a game time ritual.

Does it belong at an NFL football game? Pro football is just commercial entertainment just like a Disney picture. Should the national anthem be played in movie theaters before the start of every movie?

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