Profits 1st, Safety 2nd?

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Profile Bernie Vine
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Message 1941081 - Posted: 24 Jun 2018, 17:53:56 UTC - in response to Message 1941063.  

Do those 650 benefit scroungers in Westminster know what they're doing?


Well I suspect around 258 of them (maybe more) would not agree with the decision to privatise the lines in the first place.
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Message 1941091 - Posted: 24 Jun 2018, 19:27:14 UTC - in response to Message 1941081.  
Last modified: 24 Jun 2018, 19:27:48 UTC

My stance on bureaucracies has been pretty obvious. However to privatise after the dismal performances of previous franchisees & the bureaucrats of the DOR turning over a profit year in & year out all during the time they were in control shows much about those in Westminster.

It seems that there are those who not only don't care about running the country but just want their "pals" to rake in the profit.
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Message 1941155 - Posted: 25 Jun 2018, 7:23:28 UTC - in response to Message 1941091.  

Too many of them want to be "in the Government", but don't want to do any actual governing.

Or, as Geoffrey Howe famously said, "In office, but not in power". He was in a position to know.
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Message 1941281 - Posted: 26 Jun 2018, 8:14:32 UTC

Bacon butties at risk due to "gas" shortage

Quick, have No 10 get Trump to do a state visit, that's the gas shortage ended. :-)
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Message 1988292 - Posted: 1 Apr 2019, 10:52:31 UTC

Thanks guys.

Too hot for the transport thread in the café.

Confirmation of the thread title :-(
OUCH!


Boeing has redesigned the software so that it will disable MCAS if it receives conflicting data from its sensors.
As part of the upgrade, Boeing will install an extra warning system on all 737 Max aircraft, which was previously an optional safety feature.
Boeing attempts to restore battered reputation
Yep, & it's going to cost them!

Yet again, we see accidents forcing improvements. How many more incidents will it take to force companies to return to their original training schedules?
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Message 1988687 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 9:30:57 UTC
Last modified: 4 Apr 2019, 9:45:36 UTC

In the past, it was often blamed on "pilot error" as dead men don't talk!

Technology has finally put that to bed.
"The crew performed all the procedures repeatedly [that were] provided by the manufacturer but were not able to control the aircraft," Ms Dagmawit said in a news conference in Addis Ababa.
Boeing's reputation sinking further...
For Capt Brady, author of the Boeing 737 technical guide, this saga presents a long list of issues which need to be looked at.

"The level of automation of the aircraft, the behind the scenes systems, the risk analysis processes gone through at Boeing, the oversight by the regulator, the conversion training, the level of training generally, the manual flying skills of the crews. All of it needs to be reviewed in light of these accidents," he says.
Definitely on the ropes
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Message 1988714 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 13:51:11 UTC - in response to Message 1988687.  

In the past, it was often blamed on "pilot error" as dead men don't talk!

Technology has finally put that to bed.
"The crew performed all the procedures repeatedly [that were] provided by the manufacturer but were not able to control the aircraft," Ms Dagmawit said in a news conference in Addis Ababa.

Except Boeing's procedure can only be done once if done correctly. It is turn it off, leave it off. To do it repeatedly means they turned it on again!
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Message 1988734 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 15:24:42 UTC - in response to Message 1988714.  
Last modified: 4 Apr 2019, 15:26:55 UTC

In the past, it was often blamed on "pilot error" as dead men don't talk!

Technology has finally put that to bed.
"The crew performed all the procedures repeatedly [that were] provided by the manufacturer but were not able to control the aircraft," Ms Dagmawit said in a news conference in Addis Ababa.

Except Boeing's procedure can only be done once if done correctly. It is turn it off, leave it off. To do it repeatedly means they turned it on again!

Nope...

The "turn it [MCAS] off" is not in the manual that Boeing had issued...

The crew would be following the procedures for their familiar old 737, and not what should have been published and trained for with the somewhat different 737 MAX...

All very bad and should never have happened... TWICE over...

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Message 1988763 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 18:00:19 UTC - in response to Message 1988734.  

Martin, much as you want to hate corporations and damn them at every chance you get, Ethiopian Airlines stated that the crew had been trained on the MCAS system after the Lion Air crash on the new procedures for the 737 Max which were released and mandated to be trained before flying by government regulators.

That doesn't mean that the training they got was correct, that will have to be determined.
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Message 1988815 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 23:50:26 UTC - in response to Message 1988763.  

Very interesting... Do you have a link for that?

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Message 1988817 - Posted: 4 Apr 2019, 23:56:00 UTC - in response to Message 1988763.  

Martin, much as you want to hate corporations and damn them at every chance you get, Ethiopian Airlines stated that the crew had been trained on the MCAS system after the Lion Air crash on the new procedures for the 737 Max which were released and mandated to be trained before flying by government regulators.

That doesn't mean that the training they got was correct, that will have to be determined.

What I heard on NPR is that they did disconnect the MCAS and then it reactivated it is not know if the crew did or the airplane did on it's own. In either case if the sensor was the cause it makes sense to me that the plane behaved as it did.
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Message 1988853 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 4:25:23 UTC - in response to Message 1988815.  

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Message 1988854 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 4:44:29 UTC - in response to Message 1988817.  

Martin, much as you want to hate corporations and damn them at every chance you get, Ethiopian Airlines stated that the crew had been trained on the MCAS system after the Lion Air crash on the new procedures for the 737 Max which were released and mandated to be trained before flying by government regulators.

That doesn't mean that the training they got was correct, that will have to be determined.

What I heard on NPR is that they did disconnect the MCAS and then it reactivated it is not know if the crew did or the airplane did on it's own. In either case if the sensor was the cause it makes sense to me that the plane behaved as it did.

According to the WaPo and the NYT, the pilots turned the MCAS back on as a last resort after they could not adjust the trim manually with the trim wheels mounted on their seats.
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Message 1988882 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 9:48:39 UTC - in response to Message 1988854.  
Last modified: 5 Apr 2019, 9:49:30 UTC

According to the WaPo and the NYT, the pilots turned the MCAS back on as a last resort after they could not adjust the trim manually with the trim wheels mounted on their seats.

That's plausible.

If MCAS had driven the trim to the end-stop, then it is 100 full turns of the trim adjuster wheel to get back to the mid-position. Manually adjusting that would fatally take longer than the pilots had to respond...

And note that the trim adjusts the angle of the entire tailplain surfaces. That easily overrides anything the pilots can do with the control stick controlled elevators...


Should never have happened. And especially not TWICE.

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Message 1988900 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 14:10:15 UTC

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Message 1988912 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 15:55:40 UTC - in response to Message 1988882.  

And note that the trim adjusts the angle of the entire tailplain surfaces. That easily overrides anything the pilots can do with the control stick controlled elevators...
One can tell you have never sat in the pilot's seat.
http://www.b737.org.uk/flightcontrols.htm#Pitch
Trim (MCAS) only moves the "balance tab"*. Pilot's yoke moves the entire elevator, including the balance tab. Stabilizer is fixed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_tab
Trim tabs are small surfaces connected to the trailing edge of a larger control surface on a boat or aircraft, used to control the trim of the controls, i.e. to counteract hydro- or aerodynamic forces and stabilise the boat or aircraft in a particular desired attitude without the need for the operator to constantly apply a control force. This is done by adjusting the angle of the tab relative to the larger surface.

*Balance tab UK for US Trim Tab.
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Message 1988974 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 22:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 1988912.  

Gary,

Look again for the 737 Max...


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Message 1988978 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 23:02:48 UTC - in response to Message 1988974.  

Gary,
Look again for the 737 Max...
I would say look for Boeing 737 Max 8 and later models.
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Message 1988991 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 0:01:11 UTC - in response to Message 1988763.  

Ethiopian Airlines stated that the crew had been trained on the MCAS system after the Lion Air crash on the new procedures for the 737 Max which were released and mandated to be trained before flying by government regulators.

That doesn't mean that the training they got was correct, that will have to be determined.
A report from the Ethiopian authorities issued on Thursday said the pilots of flight ET302 "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash.



Boeing reduces 737 production
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Message 1988996 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 1:03:58 UTC - in response to Message 1988974.  

Gary,

Look again for the 737 Max...

They didn't change the tail. Haven't changed tails on airplanes in nearly a century. (Yes there are some other designs, but the 737 series doesn't use them)
As said, you very obviously have never sat in a pilot seat. I also suggest you stop listening to sensationalist news reporters who also have never sat in a pilot's seat.
Let me point you here https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=78677&postid=1988959
They turned trim off. Problem solved.
Different problem, the manual control for trim was stuck. Uh, didn't they do a controls free and rigged properly ground check before they took off? Missing a checklist item is how many a pilot kills themselves.
Inexplicably they turned a known faulty system back on and it continued to be faulty and add to the second problem.

If you had ever bothered to study flight, you would be shocked at the number of incident reports there are about some item in the cabin getting wedged and preventing a control from being operated, or suddenly operating a control. One of the reasons before flight you check that all flight controls operate freely and move the thing they are supposed to - nothing else - and in the direction it is supposed to go. And you also make sure the charts, manuals, flight plan, books and your coffee cup are secured and clear of the controls. We will never know if this the the cause of the second problem.
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