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Profile janneseti
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Message 1873362 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 14:10:25 UTC - in response to Message 1873355.  
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 14:13:39 UTC


I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen.

Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-)
Cheers.

This is how it looks if you try to extinguish burning oil with water!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LVFyNvYD8
Now in Grenfell Tower it's very clear to me that the cladding (not fireproof) caught fire as well!
But I guess we have to wait for London Fire Brigade's conclusions.
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Message 1873363 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 14:12:38 UTC - in response to Message 1873360.  

I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen.
Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-)

Cheers.
Which is a hazard known in the UK for a century or more. So, how would it turn into a complete building inferno?

Open window and curtains, cladding.

Throw in a hoarder's hoard and that only magnifies it.

But the simple fact of the matter is that the building was ill equipped to handle any sort of disastrous fire to start with and I only expect that type of building in 3rd world countries, not by modern countries such as the U.K..

Cheers.
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Message 1873364 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 14:12:48 UTC - in response to Message 1873330.  

...& this is going to help that inquiry
There's a graphical version of the chain of subcontractors in the print edition of this morning's Guardian, which I've now collected.

Harley Curtain Wall/Facades obtained Reynobond PE [polyethylene?] from Arconic. There will be a purchase order for that, with a signature (or digital equivalent). Whoever signed the order can expect a phone call from the Judge leading the public enquiry - or perhaps even a visit from the police.
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Message 1873365 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 14:26:44 UTC - in response to Message 1873364.  

Harley Curtain Wall/Facades obtained Reynobond PE [polyethylene?] from Arconic.

No it's Polyisocyanurate they used at Grenfell Tower.
I don't think they tested that with the combination of aluminium.
Aluminium is used as a catalyst used in rocket boosters and explosives!
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Message 1873368 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 14:47:14 UTC - in response to Message 1873365.  

Arconic's website has a product information page:

https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/en/product_category.asp?cat_id=1843

Reynobond aluminium composite panels is a aluminium panel consisting of two coil-coated aluminium sheets that are fusion bonded to both sides of a polyethylene core.
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Message 1873370 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:05:41 UTC - in response to Message 1873368.  
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 15:09:55 UTC

Nope
The panels were supplied by Suffolk based Celotex, part of the French St Gobain group. They are described as textured aluminium foil facings, manufactured from rigid polyisocyanurate using a blowing agent that has low global warming potential (GWP) and zero ozone depletion potential.
Polyisocyanurate and PE are completely different compounds.
If it was PE as you say it would be a complete disaster.
Polyisocyanurate is fire proof by it self.
PE is not!

BTW. In Estonia those kind of buildings are called Hruštšovka.
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Message 1873372 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:13:23 UTC - in response to Message 1873277.  



I'm getting the impression that building regulations are late, and prohibitive: anything is allowed until and unless it's forbidden. That's the same as the position until recently with 'legal highs' in the illicit drug trade. Are fuel-containing claddings the legal high of the building trade?


All they need to do is to reverse the regulations, make the manufacturers prove its structurally and fire safe or don't allow its use. similar to the regs for passenger aircraft fittings.
Kevin


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Message 1873373 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:15:56 UTC

And there you have it, what was specified was not what was ordered. Now what building inspector missed that and signed off?
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Message 1873374 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:16:43 UTC - in response to Message 1873370.  

The Guardian newspaper identifies Celotex of Ipswich as providing RS5000 insulation material.

But in two separate articles it uses the Reynobond brand name - specifically Reynobond PE - to identify the external cladding behind which the Celotex product is fitted.
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Message 1873375 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:18:24 UTC - in response to Message 1873372.  
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 15:20:11 UTC

I'm getting the impression that building regulations are late, and prohibitive: anything is allowed until and unless it's forbidden. That's the same as the position until recently with 'legal highs' in the illicit drug trade. Are fuel-containing claddings the legal high of the building trade?
All they need to do is to reverse the regulations, make the manufacturers prove its structurally and fire safe or don't allow its use. similar to the regs for passenger aircraft fittings.

Of course.
But it will be the tenants that will have to pay for it!
Always more than the actual cost.
Business As Usual.
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Message 1873377 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:21:31 UTC
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 15:22:19 UTC

TV is showing live pictures of an angry crowd trying to gain access through the doors of Kensington & Chelsea Town Hall, with no security in sight. This could end up getting nasty. Nastier than the original problem, that is.
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Message 1873378 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 15:31:10 UTC - in response to Message 1873374.  
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 15:37:32 UTC

The Guardian newspaper identifies Celotex of Ipswich as providing RS5000 insulation material.
But in two separate articles it uses the Reynobond brand name - specifically Reynobond PE - to identify the external cladding behind which the Celotex product is fitted.

Oh dear.
Many rumors are now circulating.
I'm not surprised.
All are blaming each other.

Anyway many Swedish buildings have Reynobond Aluminium facades as well!
http://www.vink.se/sv-SE/Bygg/Material-f%C3%B6r-fasader/Reynobond-aluminium-fasadplattor.aspx
Reynobond Architecture is a composite plate based on 2 layers of 0.5 mm aluminum laminated to a core of PE or so-called FR core.
The plates are produced in Merxheim in France and contain about 50% recycled aluminum.
Fire Safety.
Reynobond Architecture is available in two different fire classes and EN13501-1. Plates with PE core are classified as a B-s2, d0 while the FR-core discs are classified as B-s1, d0.
Reynobond is approved in BVD (Fire Safety Assessment).


btw RS5000 is a paint system.
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Message 1873387 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 16:33:06 UTC

"The prime minister faced criticism for not meeting survivors on a visit to the scene on Thursday, unlike Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mayor of London Sadiq Khan.

When Leader of the Commons Andrea Leadsom visited the scene, a man shouted: "Why are Sadiq Khan and Corbyn coming down here to speak to people and Theresa May is coming here with police, walking around, not meeting no-one, not meeting families?

"Enough is enough, I have got friends in that tower. We have a right to be angry.""

It has been stated that "security concerns" prevented the Prime Minister from speaking to the residents. Now we often see enough bovine excrement on these boards but that has to be the best piece of B/S this century!

Security concerns did not prevent HM The Queen from doing so
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Message 1873390 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 16:55:55 UTC - in response to Message 1873387.  
Last modified: 16 Jun 2017, 17:04:34 UTC

Security concerns did not prevent HM The Queen from doing so

Yes!

Queen Elisabeth remember the Blitz during the WWII.
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Message 1873396 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 17:25:09 UTC

"Labour councillor Robert Atkinson says he understands why demonstrators at the town hall are angry and furious.
He told the BBC it is important the council "gets a grip of the situation" and houses people and provides information as quickly as possible.
"I don't understand why the council leaders are not addressing this demonstration," he added.
"I do think the leadership of the council has the responsiblity to speak to and communicate with its residents.""

It's beneath them. Their attitude is they have employees that are paid to deal with the "great unwashed".
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Message 1873406 - Posted: 16 Jun 2017, 17:41:42 UTC - in response to Message 1873396.  

It's beneath them. Their attitude is they have employees that are paid to deal with the "great unwashed".
They are with their lawyers trying to come up with a scheme where they don't spend the rest of their days as an "untouchable."
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Message 1873546 - Posted: 17 Jun 2017, 10:56:20 UTC

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Message 1873549 - Posted: 17 Jun 2017, 11:24:57 UTC

After Britain shortly suffered from terrorist attacks, fire disasters and political turmoil, Queen Elizabeth now makes a statement about the adversities.
"It's hard to avoid a very gloomy national mood. The country has witnessed a series of terrible tragedies, she says on her official birthday.
The Monarch, now 91, celebrates two birthdays a year. Her real one will take place on April 21, and the official is usually celebrated on the second Saturday of June.
The Queen performs regular official duties and after meetings with surviving fire victims in London, she says she is moved about Britain's great will to help each other.
"We have been put to the test, but Britain has reacted firmly to the adversities. We are united in our grief and decide to, without fear or bias, support those who now build their lives after suffering so much harm and losses, "says the Queen.
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Message 1873554 - Posted: 17 Jun 2017, 11:45:56 UTC - in response to Message 1873549.  
Last modified: 17 Jun 2017, 11:48:34 UTC

Sadly, she didn't mention the adversity of austerity, which has been conducted in her name by successive Prime Ministers for the last seven years - 7 years of losing jobs, losing public facilities, losing public services. It sounds like a biblical plague.

Listen to the Prime Minister failing to answer Emily Maitlis's questions on last night's newsnight. This is The Guardian's clip: other newspapers are available. (short clip at top of page: full version lower down)
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Message 1873559 - Posted: 17 Jun 2017, 12:16:44 UTC - in response to Message 1873554.  

Sadly, she didn't mention the adversity of austerity, which has been conducted in her name by successive Prime Ministers for the last seven years - 7 years of losing jobs, losing public facilities, losing public services. It sounds like a biblical plague.
Listen to the Prime Minister failing to answer Emily Maitlis's questions on last night's newsnight. This is The Guardian's clip: other newspapers are available. (short clip at top of page: full version lower down)

But the Queen cannot comment on the political situation in Britain.
Theresa May have to.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/theresa-may-scared-grenfell-survivors-finished-austerity-cameron-osborne
That tomb in the sky will be forever Theresa May’s monument. Grenfell marks the spot and her visit marks the moment the last vestiges of her career were finally rubbed out. She made it her own yesterday by that fateful “visit” to a handful of senior fire officers, guarding her from any contaminating contact with the bereaved and newly homeless. Dead to emotion or empathy, she sealed her fate.
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