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Message 1995355 - Posted: 26 May 2019, 16:58:06 UTC - in response to Message 1995307.  

BBC - Cladding tests 'almost certain to fail', experts say
The government said it will monitor the test results this summer to decide if any immediate action needs to be taken.
A spokesperson for the government's Ministry of Housing, which ordered the tests, said: "We issued an advice notice on non-ACM cladding systems, reiterating the clearest way to ensure fire safety is to remove unsafe materials."
Says it all.
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Message 1995747 - Posted: 29 May 2019, 9:00:06 UTC
Last modified: 29 May 2019, 9:13:47 UTC

David Lammy MP, who had a friend who died in the fire, said: “These revelations show how Kensington and Chelsea council treated those living in Grenfell Tower with a combination of disdain and indifference in the years running up to the fire, despite repeated safety warnings and complaints from residents.
“If the council had used its £129m in property sales to renovate Grenfell Tower, rather than buying up other properties, 72 lives could have been saved. This forms part of a picture of gross negligence. Those responsible must be held to account.”
Makes one think, especially when one sees today's report on the BBC about councils running out of cash
English councils "warned" about running out of reserve cash

Edit: This post can quite happily sit well on the Profits 1st Safety 2nd thread, but best left here.
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Message 1995958 - Posted: 30 May 2019, 17:00:17 UTC

Still got years to go.

Grenfell Tower fire: Campaigners welcome new inquiry panel
Survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire have welcomed the appointment of two new inquiry panel members as a step towards "truth and justice".
Prof Nabeel Hamdi and architect Thouria Istephan will join Sir Martin Moore-Bick for the inquiry's second phase.
Prime Minister Theresa May appointed the pair after pressure from a campaign group. She said she was "confident" in their "diversity of skills".
Grenfell United said the task ahead of the panel was "immense".
Phase one of the inquiry focused on the events of the night of 14 June 2017 in which 72 people died.
A report into the first stage of hearings was delayed because it was "far more complex and time-consuming" than anticipated.
Phase two, which is expected to start next year, will examine causes of the fire, including the use of cladding blamed for helping it to spread.
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Message 1995959 - Posted: 30 May 2019, 17:15:08 UTC

So in drawing my conclusion Theresa, I find it difficult to comprehend why you would claim you are proud of the progress you have made following the Grenfell fire and add this to your legacy. Perhaps you have some additional evidence to the contrary. But as a final point, please be minded that 72 dead and still no arrests is something no one should be proud of.
TM, your response is pathetic
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Message 1995980 - Posted: 30 May 2019, 18:09:47 UTC - in response to Message 1995959.  

So in drawing my conclusion Theresa, I find it difficult to comprehend why you would claim you are proud of the progress you have made following the Grenfell fire and add this to your legacy. Perhaps you have some additional evidence to the contrary. But as a final point, please be minded that 72 dead and still no arrests is something no one should be proud of.
Unless of course, you are proud that you have kept your fellow politicians and bureaucrats out of jail.
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Message 1997598 - Posted: 9 Jun 2019, 20:40:01 UTC

Another fire that looks like it got out of control too fast. Thankfully no serious injuries or deaths.
Barking fire: Blaze destroys 20 flats in east London
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Message 1997611 - Posted: 9 Jun 2019, 22:27:47 UTC - in response to Message 1997598.  

Resident Mihaela Gheorghe said she had "raised several issues" about the safety of wooden balconies on the blocks of flats.
She added: "I was in my fourth-floor flat when the fire started. We ran out. The fire brigade came but they found it hard to find a water supply at first."
"We said that one day a fire is going to happen.
"We raised several issues to the builder, the maintenance companies and the council about the safety of having all these wooden balconies."
Still nobody listening.
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Message 1997646 - Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 4:48:29 UTC - in response to Message 1997611.  

Still nobody listening.
Money Talks, Safety Walks.

Mandatory retrofit. Going to cost a heck of a lot more than Brexit.
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Message 1997652 - Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 5:57:31 UTC - in response to Message 1997646.  

And it might be costing the US.

Grenfell survivors and relatives open US legal battle
Dozens of Grenfell survivors and relatives are taking legal action in the US against three firms they blame for the fire, the BBC has been told.

The lawsuit will target the cladding maker Arconic, insulation maker Celotex and fridge supplier Whirlpool.
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Message 1997689 - Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 16:35:42 UTC - in response to Message 1997652.  

And it might be costing the US.

Grenfell survivors and relatives open US legal battle
Dozens of Grenfell survivors and relatives are taking legal action in the US against three firms they blame for the fire, the BBC has been told.

The lawsuit will target the cladding maker Arconic, insulation maker Celotex and fridge supplier Whirlpool.

Yep, US Taxpayers will have to foot the bill for the judge and courtroom.

Unless the lawyers have bought a bunch of fridges and found a problem, dueling experts, I doubt that one will fly because it will be easy to say customer abuse. So it will settle for nuisance value. As to the cladding, I expect their data sheet says it burns, caveat emptor. They might do much better on your side of the pond where they might be able to show some duty of fitness for purpose. I'm sure that the paperwork disclaims any warranty of fitness. So it will settle for nuisance value.
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Message 1997700 - Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 19:35:28 UTC

The fridge case will almost certainly fail - there has been a lot of warnings in the UK over people not positioning fridges the right distance from the wall, placing stuff on top of the fridge and so on. It would be rather interesting to read the report into the first fire (the one that they thought had been put out, but had actually flashed out of the building into/onto the cladding. That might give an insight into what else was "stored" around the fridge....
Cellotex (and their US parent) did a very rapid re-write of their sales material very soon after it became apparent that there might be an issue with the foam part of the cladding system - basically they changed the fire category from "it won't burn very easily" to "it will burn quite easily". Also the plastic/aluminium composite cladding manufacturers did something similar, and together they change "consider fire stops" to "apply fire stops", giving maximum distances between the (vertical) fire stops depending on the air-gap between the "non-flammable" thermal insulation and the composite cladding and the height of the building. (Apparently the requirement (as opposed to "simple, non-mandatory" guidance) for the stops was in the very first data sheets, but got "omitted" at some time or other....)
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Message 1997717 - Posted: 10 Jun 2019, 22:55:43 UTC - in response to Message 1997700.  

Sales sheets are one thing, but what does the SDS* flammability section say?

*Safety Data Sheet, OSHA requirement. Not that your side of the pond knows about it, but if the trial is here it will come up.
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Message 1997753 - Posted: 11 Jun 2019, 4:58:50 UTC

They said the same as the sales sheets at the time.
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Message 1998036 - Posted: 13 Jun 2019, 15:21:50 UTC

TWO YEARS HENCE...


Grenfell survivors project messages on 'unsafe' tower blocks

Campaigners have projected messages on to high-rises across England saying they are unsafe...

... The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government said in a statement: "The Government has banned combustible materials in the external walls of new high-rise homes and guidance requires that sprinklers must be installed in new buildings above 30 metres.

"Building owners are ultimately responsible for the safety of the building and it is for them to decide whether to retro-fit sprinklers."




All in our only one world,
Martin
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Message 1998044 - Posted: 13 Jun 2019, 16:13:09 UTC - in response to Message 1998036.  

TWO YEARS HENCE...


Grenfell survivors project messages on 'unsafe' tower blocks

Campaigners have projected messages on to high-rises across England saying they are unsafe...

... The Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government said in a statement: "The Government has banned combustible materials in the external walls of new high-rise homes and guidance requires that sprinklers must be installed in new buildings above 30 metres.

"Building owners are ultimately responsible for the safety of the building and it is for them to decide whether to retro-fit sprinklers."

Aren't most of your blocks over there government owned? Seems again like they aren't willing to pay the piper.
Retrofit needs to be mandatory in living space.
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Message 1998162 - Posted: 14 Jun 2019, 11:35:28 UTC - in response to Message 1998036.  

And for an encore:


Grenfell Tower: Hundreds of buildings still have 'unsafe' cladding

More than 200 high-rise buildings in England with cladding similar to that used on Grenfell Tower are yet to have work to remove it.

Out of 328 buildings that still have aluminium composite material (ACM) cladding, 221 are awaiting work to start.

Events on Friday will mark the second anniversary of the Grenfell Tower fire in which 72 people died.

The government will pay £200m to remove ACM from privately owned blocks. There have been calls for the funding to be extended to other forms of cladding and fire safety measures...




To my mind, the whole building industry here needs an overhaul. Including removing the greedy profits gained from "land banking" and the deliberate restricting of housing supply to then charge excessive prices for short term small unskilled labour shoddy nasty pieces of environmentally unfriendly work... The end result is expensive and uncomfortable to live in also...

All in the UK,
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Message 1998163 - Posted: 14 Jun 2019, 11:46:32 UTC - in response to Message 1998044.  

Aren't most of your blocks over there government owned? Seems again like they aren't willing to pay the piper.
Retrofit needs to be mandatory in living space.


I agree with the latter part of your statement - there are too many people using the complex arrangements around the UK "public rented housing" market and do so to avoid their duty of care to the tenants.

That's a very common (miss) understanding, but it depends on where in the UK one is looking.
A fairly large proportion are owned by a small number of "commercial" land lords, who rent the whole block to a management company or local authority, who then rent them out to the individual tenants - a grade one mess with each layer taking their "10%".
In the past the majority of the blocks were built and run by local authorities, but they sold them off to these commercial organisations to raise money for "other projects".
Some were built by these commercial outfits, who then lease the whole block to either a housing association or the local authority.....

(Housing associations are sort of quasi-local authorities set up with the specific aim of managing part or all of an areas rented housing stock. Some will commission their own new build properties, some will take on existing buildings.)
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Message 2007701 - Posted: 16 Aug 2019, 16:20:13 UTC

Sounds familiar
"Mistakes" in the redesign of a city centre station led to the rapid spread of a huge fire.
The court was also told the station's builders had "cut corners" by packing the wall supporting the toilet block with a foot of highly flammable polystyrene after realising the ceiling was uneven.
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Message 2007748 - Posted: 16 Aug 2019, 21:43:48 UTC

The same, but different. Over the years many builders have cut corners to get the job done "in time".... The job foreman shouts at the guys on the job who find whatever they can to fill the gap, cover it up so it looks OK, job done, move on to next site.
Add to that a poorly project managed job "aided" by having two clients who didn't exactly agree on what the building (interior) should look like.....

The thing about voids between false ceilings, "disjointed" walls etc. and old wooden structures is a known issue, and these can be quite massive, and almost totally impossible to gain access to once the finish cladding is in place. I've been through Nottingham station quite a few times over the years, and it shows signs of not just one, but several stages of "refreshment". Most have been pretty disastrous in aesthetic terms as they are so mismatched - I think it would have been far better to have gone back to the bare building and had a more open structure, which would be far easier to inspect and maintain than having a number of inaccessible ducts for fire to race along in an undetectable manner. Sprinklers would then have been of use not only in killing the initial blaze but also containing it to the toilet block.
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Message 2007757 - Posted: 16 Aug 2019, 23:02:23 UTC - in response to Message 2007701.  

Sounds familiar
"Mistakes" in the redesign of a city centre station led to the rapid spread of a huge fire.
The court was also told the station's builders had "cut corners" by packing the wall supporting the toilet block with a foot of highly flammable polystyrene after realising the ceiling was uneven.

"I also suspect there are challenges when modifying historic buildings to meet the latest fire regulations, but it's not a regular occurrence for someone to set fire to a toilet.
How many people smoke fags? How careful are they in where they throw them? This is called head in sand disease!
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