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Profile Lynn Special Project $75 donor
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Message 1872938 - Posted: 14 Jun 2017, 16:45:27 UTC - in response to Message 1872935.  
Last modified: 14 Jun 2017, 16:48:43 UTC

How very sad. :-(

Followed the story last night. First thought terrorism. Just now read it was a faulty refridge.
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Message 1872940 - Posted: 14 Jun 2017, 16:50:17 UTC - in response to Message 1872938.  
Last modified: 14 Jun 2017, 17:05:25 UTC

How very sad. :-(
Followed the story last night. First thought terrorism. Just now read it was a faulty refridge.

It's another type of terrorism Lynn.
Greed!

The police fear that the death rate is expected to rise when the rescue effort is complicated. 68 people are cared for at six hospitals around London for their injuries, of which 18 are reported to be seriously injured.
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Message 1872942 - Posted: 14 Jun 2017, 17:00:24 UTC

It sounds as if the recent work to the exterior of the building was done "to the regulations". However, in my day job I regularly see people proposing the use of materials that "comply with the building regulations", but fail those required in the railway industry by a very substantial margin where there requirements are for very low surface spread, very low smoke and "zero halogen" in both interior and most exterior applications. Looking at the smoke - well it certainly wasn't "low", it was thick black, and given that the windows were uPVC, certainly contained a fair amount of halogens (until the frames melted away and let the fire into the building.
It is about time the building regulations were brought back up to strength, with some of them in a retrospective manner.
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Message 1872944 - Posted: 14 Jun 2017, 17:05:41 UTC - in response to Message 1872942.  

Grenfell Tower was renovated as late as last year. A new exterior facade of aluminum was then built on top of the old brick and it is the material choice of this facade - or rather the material used as insulation between the facades, is now speculated that could be the cause of the fire.
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Message 1873012 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 1:24:27 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jun 2017, 1:40:56 UTC

Documents describing the renovation of Grenfell Tower in western London not far from Notting Hill show that fire barriers are missing.
At least twelve people died in the fire, which spread rapidly in the 24-storey building.
The municipality that owns the property has declined to comment on barriers installed between the insulation panels that were attached to the outside of the building during the recent renovation.
Neither the construction company Rydon Group responsible for the renovation wants to comment on whether the barriers were installed but wrote in a statement that all applicable safety and fire protection requirements have been met.

I don't buy Rydon Group's "statements"!
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Message 1873029 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 3:52:04 UTC

Are the building codes that out of date? Did planning review screw up? Did an inspector take a bribe? All?

No matter, someone is going to stand trial for manslaughter.
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Message 1873054 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 5:25:22 UTC

The version current at the start of the works was dated 2010, which had an update issued in March 2016. The majority of the changes were to do with building energy efficiency, and was not retrospective on works in progress.
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Message 1873071 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 7:49:06 UTC

Sian Berry is a Green London Assembly member who chairs the London Assembly housing committee.
She says that under current rules, it is the responsibility of building owners to ensure that a fire assessment has occurred - and this "creates problems".

"It used to be the case that the fire brigade would go in and make very prescriptive requirements," she tells BBC Radio 4, but now it is "less rigorous".
She says the London Assembly looked into the issue after a similar fatal fire at Lakanal House in 2009, and found that 20% of assessments were inadequate.

"There are genuine issues with accountability," she says.
Ms Berry says her solution to the problem is for residents to become much more involved in the management of their blocks.

"Who knows these buildings better than the people who live in them?" she asks.
"It's not just about this block, it's about residents across London. People trying to make their homes better are being regarded as troublemakers by the authorities."
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Message 1873072 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 8:06:01 UTC

Sir David Amess is chair of the all-party parliamentary fire safety rescue group.

He said: "We've argued time after time that sprinklers stop lives being lost. And we've waited 11 years for a review of building regulations.

"It's absolute madness that it isn't mandatory for sprinklers to be automatically fitted in all new school buildings. It's impossible to put any amount of money on someone's life.

"It's been very, very frustrating for our committee and it's taken a tragedy like this to get some attention on the whole issue of sprinklers."
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Message 1873073 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 8:07:22 UTC

Russ Timpson is a former firefighter who now runs the risk management company Horizonscan, and is secretary of the Tall Buildings Fire Safety Network.

He told BBC Radio 4 that it is still possible to build tall buildings without sprinklers, depending on what the building is used for.

"I suspect that this will be a sea-change ... when we hopefully reflect on where we have come to with our regulations."

Mr Timpson says overseas colleagues are "staggered" when they hear tall buildings are built in the UK with a single staircase.

"We do have tough fire legislation," he says, "but it is timely that we do reflect on that. I'm afraid that to some degree the money does determine how much fire safety you build into a building."
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Message 1873076 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 8:38:17 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jun 2017, 8:42:58 UTC

I think sprinklers are a red-herring here: nobody is ever going to fit sprinklers to the outside of a residential building, which is where this fire spread.

Being clearly stated that the building was clad with ACM - Aluminium Composite Material - which sounds OK (depending what it was composited with). And behind the ACM there was unspecified insulation material - that'll be the next thing to identify and test.

Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?

Edit - [BBC} Newsnight policy editor Chris Cook said the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was sold under the brand Reynobond.

He said manufacturers offer two different versions of the cladding - one with a plastic core and one with a mineral core.

He said he understood cladding with a plastic core was used in the west London tower.
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Message 1873079 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 8:50:15 UTC - in response to Message 1873076.  

I think sprinklers are a red-herring here: nobody is ever going to fit sprinklers to the outside of a residential building, which is where this fire spread.

Had sprinklers been installed, who's to say the fire would have spread externally?
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Message 1873085 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 9:40:06 UTC - in response to Message 1873079.  

I think sprinklers are a red-herring here: nobody is ever going to fit sprinklers to the outside of a residential building, which is where this fire spread.

Had sprinklers been installed, who's to say the fire would have spread externally?

But I think sprinklers should be fitted in the stair wells, so that there is an escape route. Possibly need in corridors as well to so that people ca see and breathe.

Reuters article says there is no evidence in safety barriers being installed between the cladding panels installed.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-fire-cladding-idUKKBN19538U
Legal experts declined to express an opinion on whether fire barriers are required by law.

A 2012 planning document published by The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, which included detailed diagrams of the planned new panelling and the materials used in the new skin, did not include reference to the barriers, according to a Reuters review.

The only new cladding elements depicted or listed in the "Sustainability and Energy Statement" were wall fixings, exterior zinc panels and polyisocyanurate insulation panels.

It is not clear if the document represented the final design used in the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower, a 24-storey 1970s apartment block home to hundreds of residents, or whether fire barriers recommended by industry bodies were installed.

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Message 1873088 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 10:10:57 UTC - in response to Message 1873085.  

That would be 'stairwell', singular. It was described as 'manky', and was not touched during last year's renovation. It's suggested that there was no emergency lighting.
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Message 1873090 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 10:44:39 UTC - in response to Message 1873076.  
Last modified: 15 Jun 2017, 10:54:24 UTC

Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?

Failed fridge/freezer?
Must be speculation. No one knows what caused the fire according to fire chief Dany Cotton.
London Police Commissioner announced that 17 people have died so far, and many are still missing.
It will take weeks to search the building. Some structures have to be built so it will be safe to work there.
They will start sending in rescue dogs however.

It's rather scary it's the building itself that are burning.
If it's a wooden building it's understandable but Grenfell Tower is not.
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Message 1873091 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 10:57:41 UTC

Interesting

Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement.
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Message 1873093 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 11:13:48 UTC - in response to Message 1873091.  

Interesting

Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement.


I've got a feeling the proverbial IS going to hit the fan over this but what's the betting the people / companys responsible will just carry on with what they do
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Message 1873099 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 11:50:54 UTC - in response to Message 1873088.  

That would be 'stairwell', singular. It was described as 'manky', and was not touched during last year's renovation. It's suggested that there was no emergency lighting.

That the building only had one stairwell surprises me. I've only lived in one tower building, Army married quarters, and that had a central column with 4 lifts and stairs going round them. From the central column you went through a fire door to each wing which had its own emergency fire exit stairwell. So in an emergency we could get to 4 stairwells.
We were told that buildings that high, 15 floors IFRC, had to have more than one stairwell to meet fire regs. But maybe that's just the MOD.
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Message 1873101 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 11:55:46 UTC
Last modified: 15 Jun 2017, 12:01:49 UTC

A long chain of contractual relationships link the local authority owners of Grenfell Tower to the manufacturers of the cladding panel on the outside of the building.
Rydon employed a sub-contractor, the family-owned Harley Facades to install the cladding.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/how-a-specialist-firm-won-the-deal-to-refurbish-grenfell-tower-a3565801.html
The panels were supplied by Suffolk based Celotex, part of the French St Gobain group. They are described as textured aluminium foil facings, manufactured from rigid polyisocyanurate using a blowing agent that has low global warming potential (GWP) and zero ozone depletion potential.

Swedish saying "Ju fler kockar desto sämre soppa".
Many chefs makes a bad soup.
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Message 1873105 - Posted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:11:44 UTC

PM orders tower block fire inquiry
Prime Minister Theresa May has ordered a full public inquiry into the massive fire that engulfed a west London block of flats, killing at least 17 people.

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