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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1875228 - Posted: 26 Jun 2017, 16:14:31 UTC

As to a corporation guilty of a crime, as in the USA they are now people, put the corporation in jail. Inmates can't do business. Assets are sold to cover fines. They cease. Allowing them to continue to exist would be the travesty.
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Message 1875231 - Posted: 26 Jun 2017, 16:23:52 UTC - in response to Message 1875228.  

As to a corporation guilty of a crime, as in the USA they are now people, put the corporation in jail. Inmates can't do business. Assets are sold to cover fines. They cease. Allowing them to continue to exist would be the travesty.

When Texas executes a corporation I'll believe they are people.
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Message 1875242 - Posted: 26 Jun 2017, 17:02:11 UTC - in response to Message 1875231.  

As to a corporation guilty of a crime, as in the USA they are now people, put the corporation in jail. Inmates can't do business. Assets are sold to cover fines. They cease. Allowing them to continue to exist would be the travesty.
When Texas executes a corporation I'll believe they are people.
Might not have too long to wait. I'm sure they would love to do so to some Democratic Party Committee for some made up reason. ;)
Sorry for the OT.
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Message 1875261 - Posted: 26 Jun 2017, 18:59:31 UTC

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Message 1875319 - Posted: 27 Jun 2017, 2:47:51 UTC - in response to Message 1875231.  
Last modified: 27 Jun 2017, 2:50:05 UTC

As to a corporation guilty of a crime, as in the USA they are now people, put the corporation in jail. Inmates can't do business. Assets are sold to cover fines. They cease. Allowing them to continue to exist would be the travesty.

When Texas executes a corporation I'll believe they are people.


Ok, what exactly do you mean by 'executes a corporation'?

I submit to you that the State Government revoking a corporation's charter, thereby rendering it effectively non-existent would qualify as an 'execution'.


If so, then Texas HAS ALREADY done so.

Case in point, in 2001, the Texas Secretary of State revoked the corporate charter of Lionheart Newspapers, Inc. for non-payment of corporate franchise taxes.

On July 15, 2001, the Dallas Business Journal published this:
http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2001/07/16/story6.html
FORT WORTH -- Denise Spitler, former chief financial officer of Lionheart Newspapers Inc., has sued Lionheart, alleging the Fort Worth-based publishing group reneged on compensation that was to reach a minimum of $1 million after five years of employment.

The lawsuit also notes that Lionheart's corporate charter was revoked by the Texas secretary of state for nonpayment of franchise taxes. The state comptroller's office refused to disclose the amount of taxes Lionheart owes, saying the information is confidential under the state's tax code.


Another (of quite a number of sources):
On Sunday, December 20, 2015, Citizen Action Network published the following:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/citizens-action-network/chartering-a-new-course-revoking-a-corporations-right-to-exist/992053964200849/
In 2001, the Texas Secretary of State revoked the charter of Lionheart Newspapers Inc. (a publisher of over 70 publications) for non-payment of franchise taxes.


So, the State of Texas has 'executed' a corporation.

Question: Why did you quote a saying popularized by the 'Occupy Wall Street' movement?
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1875333 - Posted: 27 Jun 2017, 3:55:34 UTC - in response to Message 1875319.  

Who went to jail?
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Message 1875337 - Posted: 27 Jun 2017, 4:37:03 UTC - in response to Message 1875333.  

Who went to jail?


Don't know. How is it relevant?

Lionheart Newspapers, Inc. got the corporate death penalty for not paying its state franchise taxes. Now, it got cloned as Lionheart Newspapers LLC, which is a totally separate business entity. It is a whole bunch of corporate funny-business and hanky-panky.

Now then, that said, I am against 'corporate personhood', but then it IS the law at this time.

The person of 'Lionheart Newspapers, Inc.' got the corporate death penalty, the relevant official of the State of Texas (the Secretary of State) revoked its charter due to non-payment of its taxes it owed to the State of Texas, killing that corporation. It died.
https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.
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Message 1875342 - Posted: 27 Jun 2017, 6:42:33 UTC

MK you totally missed the point there didn't you?

But you did bite regardless. :-D

BTW, thanks for the good belly shake. LOL

Cheers.
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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1875385 - Posted: 27 Jun 2017, 22:04:57 UTC

@MK, what happened to the estate of the corporation? What happens to the estate of the condemned in Texas?

I've only heard of one reincarnation after the death penalty and it was a long time ago. So I think that a dissolution isn't the same, more like chapter 7.
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Message 1875473 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 11:39:42 UTC
Last modified: 28 Jun 2017, 12:05:54 UTC

100% failure - 20% of all towers in the country so far

"Theresa May told the Commons it was a 100% failure rate, as all of the samples submitted so far since the Grenfell Tower fire had failed.
She urged local authorities and housing associations to "get on with the fire safety checks"."

FRA's simply a "box-ticking exercise".

Jobs for the Boys
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Message 1875479 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 12:12:57 UTC

As I suggested a few days ago part of the problem is "death by creeping standards":

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40418266

To come to the conclusion that a system is "safe" in an environment beyond its design envelope because lots of others have said it is "safe" in other (possibly not related) environments is really asking for the weight of the law to descend upon one. Looking at the list of bodies concerned in the "extrapolating safety" that has so obviously gone on I can't see any real building fire safety organisations involved, just a load of builders who are trying to reduce their costs, and a load of others who were using the "Joe Said" principal to prove safety rather than performing the real tests or doing a PROPER desk-top evaluation of the materials involved.
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Message 1875491 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 13:48:19 UTC - in response to Message 1875473.  

Jobs for the Boys
You mean, there are no inspectors?!!!!!!!
Houston we have found the problem.
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Message 1875495 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 14:12:19 UTC

Well, there are inspectors, but they aren't employed by the local authority, but are "invited" by the building contractor. I dare say some of them will be very good and thorough, but there will be those that are "less than good".

However - even in the "good old days" of council employed inspectors most of the time they would be ensuring that the work had been done "to drawing", they would be ensuring that the material used was that that was specified on the signed-off drawings. This was OK, because earlier in the design-build chain there was someone doing their job properly, not someone bodging a paper exercise, without the understanding of the basics to say "that doesn't make sense, so I won't sign-off the design". In the old days the person signing off the drawing would look at the materials being used, and CHECK that they had the appropriate test-backed certification to say they were adequate for the task in hand, and complied with THE LAW. Today it appears they look at the material proposed, see that Joe in the next Borough has signed it off for use on another job and think "Joe signed it off, so it must be OK because I play darts with him on Tuesdays", not bothering to see that Joe had signed it off for a 6x4 garden shed, not a 24 floor block of flats. And because the drawing on file is the stamped copy and it says "use Material X" the building inspector has no right to challenge the material provided the builder is using "Material X", and probably doesn't have the specific knowledge to challenge the design authority or the design approval authority.
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Message 1875498 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 14:32:18 UTC

And presumably, once the first 'next borough Joe' has signed off, every plan across the whole country can be signed off too.

And nobody knows that Joe's sister Josephine worked for a building supplies company, and took him out for a drink at Christmas about 15 years ago, and told how they'd got this wonderful new material stacking up in the warehouse but nobody was buying it...
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Message 1875501 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 14:57:49 UTC - in response to Message 1875495.  

Well, there are inspectors, but they aren't employed by the local authority, but are "invited" by the building contractor.
As I said, no inspection. When the inspectors paycheck is proportional to how many pass that isn't inspection. When his paycheck is proportional to how many fail that is inspection.
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Message 1875504 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 15:18:49 UTC

Lot's of confusion.
Is it true that Grenfell Tower's cladding was with polyethylene PE instead of polyisocyanurate PIR?
Does that mean that all fire inspections will only check houses with PE cladding?
I wouldn't be surprised.
Here we have styrofoam EPS used in the same manner as well.
Seems even worse to me.
Turning Torso in Malmö use EPS as a cladding...
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Message 1875506 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 15:48:11 UTC

Several different things happening at once.
First there is the outer cladding, which on Grenfell was an aluminium polyethylene composite material. This was the decorative and weatherproof layer, and only a few mm thick, typically 3-6mm.
Second was the thermal insulation layer (Celotex RS5000). A highly efficient thermal insulator. Made of PIR, was the "standard" grade, not the fire resistant grade (FR5000), which has a slightly lower thermal performance, and a better (significantly better???) fire performance. This layer was about 150mm
And between them an air gap of about 150mm.

In my mind the scenario is:
The fire gets onto the outer skin, which has a very poor fire performance rating, and the outer skin starts to burn. The insulation gets hot and also starts to burn. The air gap acts as a chimney and draws these two small fires up. With the increased temperature the insulation material starts to burn "properly", producing huge amounts of toxic smoke. Because its a nice hot summer's night lots of folks (most?) have their windows open, the fire jumps into the interior of flats, and set them on fire (lots of nice soft furnishings, wood etc.). The fire gets even hotter with the increased draw from the chimney and carries further up the building, more cladding, more insulation, more flats, more toxic smoke, and critically because of all the open windows jumps onto other faces of the building.
How long does it take to do this? - Just a few minutes.
Why didn't the fire fighters notice the fire had jumped from the room into the wall? - Because initially it was contained in the air-gap between the outer cladding and the insulation.
Why did it get into the air gap? - Because there were not "gap closers" in place because the designer didn't think they were needed.
Why was a Class "B" (or worse) cladding used combined with a "Class 0" insulation (rather than a Class A1 cladding)? - Because the designer had been told by someone that it was OK.
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Message 1875507 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 15:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 1875506.  

Adding - with the fire entering the other flats through the open windows, the standard 'stay put, and increase the fire retardance of the front door with wet towels' advice can't be followed.

People open the front doors, wander out onto the landings, ask their neighbours what's going on. Probably leaving their front doors open. Smoke fills the communal areas. Depending on the state of internal fire doors (in Camden, thousands were missing), smoke enters the stairwells too, and fire follows it.
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Message 1875508 - Posted: 28 Jun 2017, 16:00:17 UTC

"Kensington and Chelsea council provided no spokesperson for the programme's debate and they were empty-chaired."

Time for Nicholas Paget-Brown to go!

Too many words, not enough action
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Message 1875652 - Posted: 29 Jun 2017, 10:58:06 UTC

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