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Message 1880937 - Posted: 29 Jul 2017, 11:25:30 UTC

Missing "critical" documentation is the joy of my life - it becomes so easy if documents are missing to demonstrate negligence as they have no documentary evidence to support their defense.
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Message 1881834 - Posted: 3 Aug 2017, 14:10:39 UTC

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Message 1881943 - Posted: 4 Aug 2017, 0:10:41 UTC

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Message 1881956 - Posted: 4 Aug 2017, 1:12:24 UTC - in response to Message 1881943.  

That building has cladding, right?
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Message 1881986 - Posted: 4 Aug 2017, 5:17:02 UTC

Yes, very similar to that used on Grenfell :-(

But it does have a good internal sprinkler system.
Just a thought - quite a number of ships that carry dangerous cargoes have deck and hull spray systems, so why not fit something similar to tall buildings???
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Message 1882425 - Posted: 6 Aug 2017, 15:24:24 UTC

Now they do a survey?
http://specificationonline.co.uk/articles/2017-08-04/dclg/fsf-launches-approved-document-b-survey
Paul Fuller, Chairman of the Fire Sector Federation, said: “We are gravely concerned in particular about the whole design, specification, supply chain and construction process.

“The system is inherently fragmented; meaning decisions about design strategies, products, techniques, certification, competency and auditing, amongst others, are made in a disjointed and often ineffective and inconsistent manner, with less regard to fire safety than should be the case.

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Message 1882632 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 14:59:02 UTC
Last modified: 7 Aug 2017, 15:00:13 UTC

in a disjointed and often ineffective and inconsistent manner, with less regard to fire safety than should be the case.


Possibly due to the incredibly effective, but horrendously naive "green lobby", who for many years have pursued a dream of getting every building brought up to a very high level of thermal insulation regardless of the impacts this may have on the safety of the building (and fire is not the only aspect this lobby group have consistently ignored)
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Message 1882659 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 17:34:42 UTC - in response to Message 1882632.  
Last modified: 7 Aug 2017, 17:37:18 UTC

in a disjointed and often ineffective and inconsistent manner, with less regard to fire safety than should be the case.


Possibly due to the incredibly effective, but horrendously naive "green lobby", who for many years have pursued a dream of getting every building brought up to a very high level of thermal insulation regardless of the impacts this may have on the safety of the building (and fire is not the only aspect this lobby group have consistently ignored)

Nothing of the sort.

Try something along the lines of the games played out in the construction industry for maximum price for the most extreme shoddiness and maximum of corners cut, all for unskilled cheapest labour possible to tick the unchecked tick-boxes...?

I've seen the total p**s-take taken for fit-outs. There really does need to be child-minder type total supervision and oversight to combat the "tarmac gang dump it and run" business models followed...

And people die or live in ongoing shoddiness for our present building practices...

For this particular example, the price difference was just £5000 for deathly combustible vs less combustible panels. And they were inappropriately used/fitted.

Corruption pays?

So much for the consequences of "deregulation"...


And only in the UK??...
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Message 1882662 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 17:37:51 UTC - in response to Message 1882659.  

Ah, "deregulation". Another name for "selling off the family silver".
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Message 1882673 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 19:06:56 UTC - in response to Message 1882659.  
Last modified: 7 Aug 2017, 19:16:50 UTC

And only in the UK??...
Martin

Not at all.
Facts about insulation fires from Fire Protection Association from 2012 in Sweden.
Yes. Known facts for at least five years!
The use of EPS cellular plastic has increased by 98 percent in ten years. Cell plastic is flammable and contributes to increased fire risk.
"The development we see leads to a deterioration in the safety of persons and the financial consequences of a fire are increasing drastically," says Cecilia Uneram, fire engineer at the Fire Protection Association.
https://www.brandskyddsforeningen.se/vart-arbete/cellplast/fakta-om-cellplastbrander/
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.brandskyddsforeningen.se%2Fvart-arbete%2Fcellplast%2Ffakta-om-cellplastbrander%2F&edit-text=
Dijon, France 2012.
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Message 1882680 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 20:48:16 UTC - in response to Message 1882662.  

Deregulation is the process of removing regulations, which is totally different to selling off the family silver.
A lot of the deregulation in the building industry started about 40 years ago, and has continued apace for all that time. The trouble is, since this process took so long nobody really noticed what had happened until the last couple of years (if that!).
Selling off the family silver is the process of privatisation, which never really got going in the building industry because so much of it was already in private hands.

What grieves me with the fire safety vs. insulation "debate" is that there are now more people running around doing "environmental insulation assessments" than there ever were doing fire safety assessments, and they are charging (proportionately) far more for their services.

But, sadly, I bet in a couple of years time the balance will swing back....
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Message 1882688 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 22:27:58 UTC - in response to Message 1882680.  
Last modified: 7 Aug 2017, 22:28:38 UTC

What grieves me with the fire safety vs. insulation "debate" is that there are now more people running around doing "environmental insulation assessments" than there ever were doing fire safety assessments, and they are charging (proportionately) far more for their services.

Some example of data sheets from insulation manufactures.
No mentioning of fire safety assessments.
EPS.http://www.universalconstructionfoam.com/resources/expanded-polystyrene-data-sheet.php
XEPS. http://www.universalconstructionfoam.com/resources/extruded-polystyrene-data-sheet.php
Reynobond cladding...
Now it start to be very complicated.
https://www.arconic.com/aap/north_america/en/product.asp?prod_id=1534
Fire class PE core: according to DIN4102 (B-s2-d0) Class I surface lining, very smokey.
Fire class FR core: according to DIN4102 (B-s1-d0) Class I surface lining, smokey.
In Germany only one regulation but in Britain two?
DIN 4102 is almost like the US NFPA 701.
Reynobond FR is manufactured just like Reynobond PE, but with a fire-retardant mineral core that guarantees higher resistance to fire.
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vink.se%2Fsv-SE%2FBygg%2FMaterial-f%25C3%25B6r-fasader%2FReynobond-aluminium-fasadplattor.aspx&edit-text=
http://www.vink.se/sv-SE/Bygg/Material-f%C3%B6r-fasader/Reynobond-aluminium-fasadplattor.aspx

Whatever. All fire assessments seems to be about fires just in a single room and how that is spreading.
Not when the building walls are spreading fire to other rooms.
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Message 1882695 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 23:11:56 UTC - in response to Message 1882693.  

And Fire Safety, was perhaps, unintentionally overlooked?
Or deliberately downplayed by the contractors, using 'refurbishment vs new build' loopholes?
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Message 1882699 - Posted: 7 Aug 2017, 23:32:26 UTC - in response to Message 1882693.  

Whatever. All fire assessments seems to be about fires just in a single room and how that is spreading.
Not when the building walls are spreading fire to other rooms.

Acknowledging my ignorance.
Are we saying that it is possible that Insulation (Energy/Environmental Concerns) became the priority. And Fire Safety, was perhaps, unintentionally overlooked?

I would say yes.
Fire incidents are fairly rare and often most fires are dealt with before it's spreading.
And it's more cheaper to spend on Insulation to get more Return Of Investment than Fire safety would give.
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Message 1883038 - Posted: 10 Aug 2017, 21:02:02 UTC

South London estate to be evacuated over safety fears, it's not for paneling, but because;
The council confirmed that "strengthening works" - carried out on estates under government order across the UK in the wake of Ronan Point - may never have happened on the Ledbury.


Ronan Point
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Message 1883865 - Posted: 14 Aug 2017, 19:08:15 UTC

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Message 1885217 - Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 3:51:06 UTC

It seems that Grenfell was the spark that now forces others to speak out. Unfortunately, in today's society it is a case of profits talk, safety walks.

Fire risks
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Message 1885233 - Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 8:00:17 UTC - in response to Message 1885217.  
Last modified: 21 Aug 2017, 8:00:46 UTC

It seems that Grenfell was the spark that now forces others to speak out. Unfortunately, in today's society it is a case of profits talk, safety walks.

Fire risks

Though I'm very surprised that a fridge could of started that sort of fire (clothes dryers and people who won't clean their lint filters are another story), but that's just trying a bit of typical business/political deflection onto a 3rd party instead of just fessing up to their own incompetence.

In reality that fire should not have passed the confines of the unit itself in the first place under modern circumstances/conditions.

Cheers.
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Message 1885234 - Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 8:12:55 UTC

It is illegal to sell many goods (in Europe) without them having a "CE" mark.
A great idea, but it is so easy to put a "CE" mark on in item that is actually meaningless. Basically all the mark means is that the item (or at least an exemplar) complies with part of some Euro-Norm, as defined on the certificate and declaration of compliance that "accompanies" the item. All too often I've been "offered" equipment as having a "CE" mark as demonstration of compliance against the wrong set of standards, the wrong parts of the standards. And all too many of those items fail the required full suite of tests when they are re-run (but technically you can't re-run the "passed" tests"). The way the "CE" mark works means it is not illegal to withdraw the item from sale, by withdrawing the mark, until such time as it is demonstrated the declared set of standards has not been met.

Then there are the totally fraudulent marks, items that have no chance of ever bearing a legal mark, but have one anyway...

And, further it is against EU law for a country to require further proof of compliance with a sensible, relevant set of standards than the minimum subset required under EU law, unless such an enhanced set is permitted under the particular EU regulations.
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Message 1885238 - Posted: 21 Aug 2017, 9:12:48 UTC - in response to Message 1885234.  

interesting comment regarding the EU. A white paper was published on 3rd December 2014.

Europe is playing with fire
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