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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Welcome to the world of Ivory Towers "After further correspondence, Liberal Democrat MP Steven Williams - who was then a minister in the department - replied: "I have neither seen nor heard anything that would suggest that consideration of these specific potential changes is urgent and I am not willing to disrupt the work of this department by asking that these matters are brought forward." The group replied to say they "were at a loss to understand, how you had concluded that credible and independent evidence, which had life safety implications, was NOT considered to be urgent". "As a consequence the group wishes to point out to you that should a major fire tragedy, with loss of life, occur between now and 2017 in, for example, a residential care facility or a purpose built block of flats, where the matters which had been raised here, were found to be contributory to the outcome, then the group would be bound to bring this to others' attention."" |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower. That a fridge fire could cause so that a whole building is on fire in only some minutes... The Grenfell Tower residents seems like have lived in a ticking bomb... Oh I forgot. Accidents don't happens! No need for fire regulations. I remember this. Fire drills at school. Evacuation using the fire brigade's ladders. Crawling in a dark chamber filled with smoke. Fire drill at my workplace. Only the evacuation part. Fire drill at the army. What to do if the tent starts to burn. Being night watch keeping my brothers in arms safe. Real fire next door to me. How to get out from your flat. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
That may be correct, but who is to say that the external cladding wasn't already smouldering & burst into flames by the time the firefighters reached the ground? |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Seems very plausible. From my understanding the fire started on the fourth floor. It takes some minutes to leave the flat not using the elevators and bringing back their equipment. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30981 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
That may be correct, but who is to say that the external cladding wasn't already smouldering & burst into flames by the time the firefighters reached the ground? Yeah, and don't they leave one person with the engine to operate it? I suppose he just didn't look up. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22506 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
The first fire service personnel arrived about 10 minutes after the first call. During the last couple of minutes of their approach the fire lept up the last few floors - the building went up like a flaming torch. There was a rather scary phone video shot by one of the next group of fire engines, about two minutes after the first one, the fire crew couldn't believe how far the flames had spread. Not the video, but a series of pictures showing the spread of the fire http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40301289 (The first shot is about 30 minutes after the first call.....) Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30981 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
In a separate development, Panorama has discovered that firefighters put out the first fire at Grenfell Tower. I'm going to speculate that the firefighters in the flat did what firefighters usually do, ventilate. So they opened the window and the heat and fire got up into the cladding. They put out inside, had no clue they caught the rest of the building. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The Grenfell Tower inferno might turn out to be the single biggest building insurance payout in European history. The Times newspaper estimated the total bill could be as high as £1 billion (US$1.27 billion) but the eventual cost will depend on the number of deaths, the litigation involved, the cost of demolishing the building and the price of rebuilding the tower. Ironically, Kensington and Chelsea Council, which is the freeholder of Grenfell Tower, changed its insurer in March. Kensington, and two other boroughs — Westminster, as well as Hammersmith and Fulham Council — switched from Zurich, the giant Swiss company, to Protector Forsikring, a Norwegian company with a UK office in Manchester to save money. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22506 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
Being a hot night it is quite probable that windows were already open before the fire started, thus flames could escape from the confines of the flat and onto the outside. However the fire appears to have been able to get into the space between the new outer cladding, which was composed of two layers, and the existing concrete wall panels. This should not have been possible, being "protected" by the window frames and weather-stop barriers, the windows were uPVC, and most probably the weather-stop barriers were the same material. The weather-stop barrier is intended to prevent wind from getting between the existing wall and new cladding (there have been a few instances of wind pulling decorative panels off multi-story buildings even at quite low wind speeds). The new cladding system was composed of two major elements, an inner PU(?) foam "batt" with an outer aluminium/PE composite. There would also be an air-gap as the PU foam tends to "sweat" the foaming agent for some time after installation, and needs to be able to breathe; typically this layer is 50-100mm thick, and will burn when exposed to flame, producing voluminous toxic black smoke as it does. The outer, decorative, skin is typically 3-6mm thick, comprising 2 thin aluminium skins with between 2mm and 5mm of expanded PE between, and a decorative finish on the outer surface. Obviously the PE foam will burn, but it needs an an air supply to do so, but it is not very easy to get enough air into the gap between the aluminium skins, UNLESS the skins have been distorted by heat on their faces. An air gap is provided between the inner (insulation) and outer (decorative) layers, typically this is 50-100mm. This is a very nice chimney and flame duct, flames being fed by the burning insulation, hidden from anyone in the room, melting the PE foam, destroying the integrity of the outer skin & its attachment to the building. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Good summary. Add that there should be a flame-stop barrier across the insulation-facing gap at every floor, to eliminate the chimney effect. What happened to that? (drilled, burnt, missing, other...) |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22506 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
I would have expected that at each floor level there should be such a barrier, but looking at the pictures I can't see the remnants of one... Loads of "cost saving exercises" on the exterior, including choice of insulating material, horizontal fire breaks..... Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Agree, a good summary. I watched Panorama London Tower Fire - Britain's Shame. Only 30 minutes but anyone that watched it... :-( In a few scenes of the tower which showed several sides of the building, one side were not scarred by burns up to posible the 7th floor(not 100% sure & don't want to rewatch it), the cladding looked okay until it showed where it burned higher. It looks as if melted. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Loads of "cost saving exercises" on the exterior, including choice of insulating material, horizontal fire breaks.....It was reported on LBC radio that shortly before the fire, the head of the council sent out letters to the higest payers in the borough stating that due to their cost cutting & efficiency, the council will be making a £100 refund of council tax. It was also mentioned that this year the council's funds would total £209,000,000, a surplus of £42,000,000. It has been put on social media but so far, have found no confirmation of that. However, if true... |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
It was reported on LBC radio that shortly before the fire, the head of the council sent out letters to the higest payers in the borough stating that due to their cost cutting & efficiency, the council will be making a £100 refund of council tax. It was also mentioned that this year the council's funds would total £209,000,000, a surplus of £42,000,000.This letter was printed in the Guardian on Saturday 17 June. My local tax rebate is blood moneyI've taken the wording from the website version, which is slightly longer than the version printed in the paper. The signature is name and address supplied, but I know the Guardian has a policy of checking the authors of letters before publication. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24909 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Thanks for that Richard. Speaks volumes with no need to add anything to it. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30981 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Conservative. Confidence scheme. Con. Convict. Anyone see the pattern? |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19372 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Just reported on the Beeb. London fire: Kensington council chief quits The chief executive of Kensington and Chelsea council has resigned amid criticism over the borough's response to the Grenfell Tower fire. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22506 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
I just spotted this - the drawing on page 3 looks scarily like the Grenfell fire (and the document dates back to 2015) https://www.celotex.co.uk/assets/rainscreen-compliance_specificationguide_mar15.pdf What is really disturbing is that the insulation material recommended is the "more fire resistant" version - which was not used at Grenfell. And the outer cladding recommended is the stone wool filled version (outer skins of thin aluminium sheet with a stone wool filler) - again not used at Grenfell. (It is fairly "safe" to ignore the existing wall as Grenfell has a concrete slab wall which probably has better fire performance when compared to the plasterboard on studding wall used in the example in the recommendations.) Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
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