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janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
This is how it looks if you try to extinguish burning oil with water! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5LVFyNvYD8 Now in Grenfell Tower it's very clear to me that the cladding (not fireproof) caught fire as well! But I guess we have to wait for London Fire Brigade's conclusions. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36791 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Which is a hazard known in the UK for a century or more. So, how would it turn into a complete building inferno?I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen.Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-) Throw in a hoarder's hoard and that only magnifies it. But the simple fact of the matter is that the building was ill equipped to handle any sort of disastrous fire to start with and I only expect that type of building in 3rd world countries, not by modern countries such as the U.K.. Cheers. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
...& this is going to help that inquiryThere's a graphical version of the chain of subcontractors in the print edition of this morning's Guardian, which I've now collected. Harley Curtain Wall/Facades obtained Reynobond PE [polyethylene?] from Arconic. There will be a purchase order for that, with a signature (or digital equivalent). Whoever signed the order can expect a phone call from the Judge leading the public enquiry - or perhaps even a visit from the police. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Harley Curtain Wall/Facades obtained Reynobond PE [polyethylene?] from Arconic. No it's Polyisocyanurate they used at Grenfell Tower. I don't think they tested that with the combination of aluminium. Aluminium is used as a catalyst used in rocket boosters and explosives! |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Arconic's website has a product information page: https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/en/product_category.asp?cat_id=1843 Reynobond aluminium composite panels is a aluminium panel consisting of two coil-coated aluminium sheets that are fusion bonded to both sides of a polyethylene core. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Nope The panels were supplied by Suffolk based Celotex, part of the French St Gobain group. They are described as textured aluminium foil facings, manufactured from rigid polyisocyanurate using a blowing agent that has low global warming potential (GWP) and zero ozone depletion potential. Polyisocyanurate and PE are completely different compounds. If it was PE as you say it would be a complete disaster. Polyisocyanurate is fire proof by it self. PE is not! BTW. In Estonia those kind of buildings are called Hruštšovka. |
Kevin Olley Send message Joined: 3 Aug 99 Posts: 906 Credit: 261,085,289 RAC: 572 |
All they need to do is to reverse the regulations, make the manufacturers prove its structurally and fire safe or don't allow its use. similar to the regs for passenger aircraft fittings. Kevin |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31009 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
And there you have it, what was specified was not what was ordered. Now what building inspector missed that and signed off? |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
The Guardian newspaper identifies Celotex of Ipswich as providing RS5000 insulation material. But in two separate articles it uses the Reynobond brand name - specifically Reynobond PE - to identify the external cladding behind which the Celotex product is fitted. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
I'm getting the impression that building regulations are late, and prohibitive: anything is allowed until and unless it's forbidden. That's the same as the position until recently with 'legal highs' in the illicit drug trade. Are fuel-containing claddings the legal high of the building trade?All they need to do is to reverse the regulations, make the manufacturers prove its structurally and fire safe or don't allow its use. similar to the regs for passenger aircraft fittings. Of course. But it will be the tenants that will have to pay for it! Always more than the actual cost. Business As Usual. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
TV is showing live pictures of an angry crowd trying to gain access through the doors of Kensington & Chelsea Town Hall, with no security in sight. This could end up getting nasty. Nastier than the original problem, that is. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The Guardian newspaper identifies Celotex of Ipswich as providing RS5000 insulation material. Oh dear. Many rumors are now circulating. I'm not surprised. All are blaming each other. Anyway many Swedish buildings have Reynobond Aluminium facades as well! http://www.vink.se/sv-SE/Bygg/Material-f%C3%B6r-fasader/Reynobond-aluminium-fasadplattor.aspx Reynobond Architecture is a composite plate based on 2 layers of 0.5 mm aluminum laminated to a core of PE or so-called FR core. btw RS5000 is a paint system. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
"The prime minister faced criticism for not meeting survivors on a visit to the scene on Thursday, unlike Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mayor of London Sadiq Khan. When Leader of the Commons Andrea Leadsom visited the scene, a man shouted: "Why are Sadiq Khan and Corbyn coming down here to speak to people and Theresa May is coming here with police, walking around, not meeting no-one, not meeting families? "Enough is enough, I have got friends in that tower. We have a right to be angry."" It has been stated that "security concerns" prevented the Prime Minister from speaking to the residents. Now we often see enough bovine excrement on these boards but that has to be the best piece of B/S this century! Security concerns did not prevent HM The Queen from doing so |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Security concerns did not prevent HM The Queen from doing so Yes! Queen Elisabeth remember the Blitz during the WWII. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
"Labour councillor Robert Atkinson says he understands why demonstrators at the town hall are angry and furious. He told the BBC it is important the council "gets a grip of the situation" and houses people and provides information as quickly as possible. "I don't understand why the council leaders are not addressing this demonstration," he added. "I do think the leadership of the council has the responsiblity to speak to and communicate with its residents."" It's beneath them. Their attitude is they have employees that are paid to deal with the "great unwashed". |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31009 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
It's beneath them. Their attitude is they have employees that are paid to deal with the "great unwashed".They are with their lawyers trying to come up with a scheme where they don't spend the rest of their days as an "untouchable." |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
After Britain shortly suffered from terrorist attacks, fire disasters and political turmoil, Queen Elizabeth now makes a statement about the adversities. "It's hard to avoid a very gloomy national mood. The country has witnessed a series of terrible tragedies, she says on her official birthday. The Monarch, now 91, celebrates two birthdays a year. Her real one will take place on April 21, and the official is usually celebrated on the second Saturday of June. The Queen performs regular official duties and after meetings with surviving fire victims in London, she says she is moved about Britain's great will to help each other. "We have been put to the test, but Britain has reacted firmly to the adversities. We are united in our grief and decide to, without fear or bias, support those who now build their lives after suffering so much harm and losses, "says the Queen. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Sadly, she didn't mention the adversity of austerity, which has been conducted in her name by successive Prime Ministers for the last seven years - 7 years of losing jobs, losing public facilities, losing public services. It sounds like a biblical plague. Listen to the Prime Minister failing to answer Emily Maitlis's questions on last night's newsnight. This is The Guardian's clip: other newspapers are available. (short clip at top of page: full version lower down) |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Sadly, she didn't mention the adversity of austerity, which has been conducted in her name by successive Prime Ministers for the last seven years - 7 years of losing jobs, losing public facilities, losing public services. It sounds like a biblical plague. But the Queen cannot comment on the political situation in Britain. Theresa May have to. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/16/theresa-may-scared-grenfell-survivors-finished-austerity-cameron-osborne That tomb in the sky will be forever Theresa May’s monument. Grenfell marks the spot and her visit marks the moment the last vestiges of her career were finally rubbed out. She made it her own yesterday by that fateful “visit†to a handful of senior fire officers, guarding her from any contaminating contact with the bereaved and newly homeless. Dead to emotion or empathy, she sealed her fate. |
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