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Message 1833958 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 1:27:43 UTC - in response to Message 1833956.  

Not really. The EU is more similar to our first Constitution, The Articles of Confederation. Established in 1781. It was a disaster.

Hehe:)
And here we are :)
Doing the same mistakes done decades ago.
The only thing I learnt about the EU is that is a business club.
Nothing else.
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Message 1834021 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 13:42:35 UTC - in response to Message 1833958.  

The only thing I learnt about the EU is that is a business club.

Well that club could be getting a kick where the sun doesn't shine shortly - No subscriptions needed :-)

Austria

Italy
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Message 1834022 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 13:43:50 UTC - in response to Message 1833940.  

It took 9 of 13 States to ratify the US Constitution and create the United States government... not 51% of the people.
What states? If there wasn't a USA there weren't states. The Continental Congress adopted the Confederation, the constitution of the USA, no states existed when that happened, just colonies.

The wholesale amendment to that Constitution, drawn up by the Constitutional Convention, did require the now existing states to repudiate the old and adopt the new as they were surrendering their sovereignty.

I know the Tea-Trump really hates the Confederation as it points out the USA has already tried huge power to the states and near zero to the Federal government and that test was a failure. That can't admit they are just proposing failure warmed over.


Gary,

Have you ever read the Articles of Confederation??




To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names, send greeting.
Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, did, on the 15th day of November, in the Year of Our Lord One thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina, and Georgia in the words following, viz. "Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states of New-hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North-Carolina, South-Carolina and Georgia".

Article I.
The Stile of this confederacy shall be "The United States of America."

Article II.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.


Sorry...

The United States did not create the States. The States created the United States of America ('v1.0' under the Articles of Confederation, 'v2.0' under the Constitution).

And to answer you regarding the Status of the States under the US Constitution,

'States' is mentioned frequently in the US Constitution, but more specifically:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


not to mention:

AMENDMENT XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

...



Effectively, every US Citizen has 'dual Citizenship'... The USA, AND the State they reside in.
The basic unit of sovereignty in the USA is the State, as a constitutional republic. The State gets its sovereignty from the People (its citizens) in THAT State. All other levels of Government below the State (city, county, etc.) are CREATED by the State. The US Federal Government is a creation of the several States, and obtains its sovereignty from the limited grants given it by the several States under the US Constitution. The States CREATED the US Federal Government.

The USA is a Federal constitutional Republic of (currently 50) constitutional Republics.

There are 51 different sovereign Governments in the USA. Deal with it.

I suspect we have a different understanding of the word sovereign than the one I use:

From the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States:
ARTICLE 1: The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a) a permanent population; b) a defined territory; c) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.
(source : http://www.oas.org/juridico/english/treaties/a-40.html)

To the best of my knowledge, the convention formalized what was previously a working assumption. Note d), this is a power an individual State of the US lacks, though it is one exercised by the Federal government, thus States are not sovereign in international law.

The individual States are not independent of the USA (and therefore separately sovereign), indeed the US Constitution is expressly Supreme, from Article 6:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

Notions of State sovereignty are thus wishful thinking. Deal with it.

Being a "State citizen" is an automatic right of citizens of the United States on residency within a State. States cannot naturalize citizens. This shows again States are not sovereign, they have no power to determine who is a citizen (the Federal government has this power).

Note, I am not saying anything about States' rights vs rights of the Federal government, though I am saying these come from the US Constitution, which has primacy over both, and that the source of the US Constitution's authority is the citizenry of the United States.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1834030 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 14:37:38 UTC - in response to Message 1834029.  

Don't you mean January 20th 2017? :-)
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Message 1834032 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 14:50:30 UTC - in response to Message 1834021.  

The only thing I learnt about the EU is that is a business club.

Well that club could be getting a kick where the sun doesn't shine shortly - No subscriptions needed :-)
Austria
Italy

Austria. Nazi legacy?
Italy. Berlusconi legacy?
Well the European countries starts to smell ugly!
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Message 1834051 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 16:22:15 UTC

Again, simplification from the founding fathers (Jefferson)........

“No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him.”

Rational Anarchy = "simplify, simplify"............

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1834054 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 16:42:48 UTC - in response to Message 1834046.  

The way congress gave themselves the authority to regulate a naturally occurring plant was to claim it under the commerce clause, create a tax on it, make it illegal to possess if the "TAX STAMP" was not affixed to it, and then NOT ISSUE TAX STAMPS. wrong, wrong, wrong!


I'm guessing this statement isn't going to compute for most even though there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

At best, one could use it as a stepping stone to (rightfully) go on a Tricky D rant... but that's about it.
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Message 1834058 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 16:51:26 UTC

But to bring this thread slightly back on track and address the - by far - most important issue of the day:

This is me crossing my fingers and hoping that the Tony Blair of Italy gets his a** handed to him today. Enough with the neo-liberal narcissists already.

(Seeing as the Guardian has fully endorsed him, I'm liking my odds of getting this one right too. My crystal ball hasn't failed me yet)
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Message 1834066 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 17:24:42 UTC - in response to Message 1834058.  

Well as this year has already shown, & again here, you cannot believe all the experts & pollsters say.

"But the Austrian results surprised many.
Opinion polls in the run-up to Sunday's vote suggested the result was too close to call.
Mr Hofer, the candidate for the anti-immigration Freedom Party, conceded within minutes of the first projections in this rerun. "

However, a little respite for the EU gurus...

"The result is sure to be welcomed by establishment parties and officials in the EU. "

...next up is Italy :-)

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Message 1834076 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 18:05:20 UTC

"The result is sure to be welcomed by establishment parties and officials in the EU. "

It would appear the EU may decide to, as Ben Franklin put it, "all hang together, rather than hang separately(sic)".........although Italy may throw a big spanner in the works.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1834084 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 18:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1834046.  

edit: Congress has the Constitutional authority to establish laws on naturalization or immigration, but they do not have the Constitutional authority to regulate a naturally occurring weed which has many other potential properties other than negative intoxicating effects.

edit 2: The way congress gave themselves the authority to regulate a naturally occurring plant was to claim it under the commerce clause, create a tax on it, make it illegal to possess if the "TAX STAMP" was not affixed to it, and then NOT ISSUE TAX STAMPS. wrong, wrong, wrong! What else has congress done to ignore the rules imposed on them by the states? That could be another thread with thousands of entries!

Totally false, er post-truth.

The weed does not naturally occur in the USA, it is imported. Natural range is central Aisa and the Indian sub-continent. As it had to cross the international border to be in the USA - smuggled, that is the province of congress. But you can continue to have your fantasy, er post-truth.
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Message 1834096 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 19:20:00 UTC

For those that like to discuss constitutions & rule of law...

Article 50 case

...what would your answer to this be?
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Message 1834116 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 21:01:29 UTC - in response to Message 1834038.  
Last modified: 4 Dec 2016, 21:36:41 UTC

The only thing I learnt about the EU is that is a business club.

Well that club could be getting a kick where the sun doesn't shine shortly - No subscriptions needed :-)
Austria
Italy

Austria. Nazi legacy?
Italy. Berlusconi legacy?
Well the European countries starts to smell ugly!

Or as all cultures do, when in trouble. Revert to their foundations?

There is a problem with that.
I don't even know what foundations my country lies within.
Loosely it's a democracy but sometimes you wonder.
But there are more countries then Sweden here in Europe!
Albania, Andorra, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Kosovo, Croatia, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Austria, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, San Marino, Switzerland, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Germany, Ukraine, Hungary, the Vatican City, Belarus.
Almost forgot. The UK:)

Some new "Republics"
Luhansk People's Republic and Donetsk People's Republic:)

I wonder if the Republic of Jämtland also should be considered as a country.
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Message 1834130 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 21:33:29 UTC - in response to Message 1834093.  

Totally irrelevant redirection.

An admission that the post-truth was undeniably false.
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Message 1834152 - Posted: 4 Dec 2016, 23:16:03 UTC - in response to Message 1834143.  

Totally irrelevant redirection.

An admission that the post-truth was undeniably false.

No, an admission that you're attempting to use an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. Doesn't matter where ON THIS EARTH that plant grows naturally. Edit: It NOW grows within our borders.

Made my point. finis.

If the compounds from one natural imported plant should be freely available, shouldn't the same law be applied to these plants. I'm sure you would love to have some of them mixed into your meals.


Abrus precatorius, rosary pea
Aconitum lycoctonum, wolfsbane
Aconitum napellus, monkshood
Actaea racemosa, black cohosh
Actaea spicata, baneberry
Aesculus hippocastanum, horse chestnut
Amanita muscaria, fly agaric
Aquilegia atrata, columbine
Aristolochia clematitis, birthwort
Artemisia absinthium, wormwood
Arum italicum, Italian cuckoopint
Arum maculatum, cuckoopint
Aspergillus fumigatus
Atropa belladonna, deadly nightshade
Brugmansia suaveolens, angel's trumpet
Bryonia dioica, bryony
Buxus sempervirens, common box
Camellia sinensis, tea
Cannabis sativa, marijuana
Catha edulis, khat
Chelidonium majus, greater celandine
Cimicifuga racemosa, black cohosh
Claviceps purpurea, ergot
Clematis vitalba, old man's beard
Colchicum autumnale, naked ladies
Conium maculatum, poison hemlock
Convallaria majalis, lily of the valley
Cynoglossum officinale, hound’s tongue
Daphne mezereon, spurge olive
Datura stramonium, thorn apple, jimsonweed
Datura suaveolens, angel's trumpet
Delphinium, larkspur
Digitalis spp., foxglove
Dracunculus vulgaris, dragon arum
Echium vulgare, viper’s bugloss
Eranthis hyemalis, winter aconite
Erythroxylum coca, cocaine
Euonymus europaeus, spindle tree
Euphorbia x martinii, red spurge
Euphorbia pulcherrima, poinsettia
Fritillaria spp., fritillary
Galanthus nivalis, snowdrop
Hedera helix, common ivy
Helleborus spp., hellebore
Heracleum mantegazzianum, giant hogweed
Hyacinthoides non-scripta, bluebell
Hyoscyamus niger, black henbane
Ilex aquifolium, holly
Jacobaea vulgaris, ragwort
Juniperus communis, common juniper
Laburnum anagyroides, laburnum
Lactuca serriola, prickly lettuce
Leucojum aestivum, snowflake
Lithospermum officinale, gromwell
Lolium temulentum, darnel
Malus 'John Downie', crab apple
Mandragora officinarum, mandrake
Mercurialis perennis, dog’s mercury
Narcissus, daffodil
Nepeta faassenii, catmint
Nerium oleander, oleander
Nicotiana sylvestris, tobacco
Oenanthe crocata, hemlock water dropwort
Papaver somniferum, opium poppy
Pastinaca sativa, parsnip
Polygonatum odoratum, angular Solomon's seal
Prunus laurocerasus, cherry laurel
Pulsatilla vulgaris, pasque flower
Ranunculus acris, meadow buttercup
Rheum x hybridum, rhubarb
Rhododendron spp.
Rhus radicans, poison ivy
Ricinus communis, castor oil plant
Rosmarinus officinalis, rosemary
Rumex obtusifolius, broad-leaved dock
Ruta graveolens, rue
Salix alba, white willow
Salvia divinorum, sage
Scutellaria laterifolia, Virginian skullcap
Senecio jacobaea, ragwort
Solanum dulcamara, woody nightshade
Solanum melongena, aubergine
Strychnos nux-vomica, poison nut
Symphoricarpos albus, snowberry
Symphytum spp., comfrey
Taxus baccata, yew
Toxicodendron radicans, poison ivy
Thevetia peruviana, yellow oleander
Urtica dioica, stinging nettle
Veratrum album, white hellebore
Verbascum olympicum, Greek mullein
Vinca major, greater periwinkle
Viscum album, mistletoe
Vitex agnus-castus, chaste tree
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Message 1834172 - Posted: 5 Dec 2016, 0:47:04 UTC - in response to Message 1834143.  

Doesn't matter where ON THIS EARTH that plant grows naturally. Edit: It NOW grows within our borders.

Smuggled into the USA and the result of crime which is one of the crimes enumerated for the federal government to regulate. It doesn't matter how long ago the original crime happened. It is still the result of a crime and still smuggling.

How about this, Jack smuggles in some item but he drops it by the side of the road. You come along and find it. Is it still smuggled into the country? But you seem to be saying if he dropped a seed and it sprouts it no longer is smuggled.
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Message 1834173 - Posted: 5 Dec 2016, 0:49:30 UTC

So I went out with Maria for our first beer in 4 months... Renzi already resigned? Damn!

Awesome :)

60/40?

Awesome :)
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