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bobby
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Message 1833742 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 1:37:33 UTC - in response to Message 1833169.  

BUT, in the USA, it is the State Governments of the several (currently 50) States the CREATES the 'US Federal Government'. It is the sovereignty of the State Governments that CREATES the sovereignty of the Federal Government, under the US Federal Constitution. NOT the other way around.

And there was me thinking the US Constitution's preamble said something about "We the People" (rather than "We the States"). Which States issue passports that are recognized by foreign nations? Which States are able to naturalize new citizens? Why does Section 10 of Article 1 state specific limits on State powers, rather than phrase them as powers voluntarily delegated to the Fed? Why is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the land (rather than the individual Constitutions of the various States)?

Oh, I forgot, post-truth, 'nuff said.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1833757 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 2:08:36 UTC - in response to Message 1833742.  

Uh, I don't know if you noticed but Hillary won the popular vote. She ain't president.

"We the people of the States" doesn't sound as catchy. It's still more true than not though.

And that's a good thing.

- - - - - - -

Maybe you should focus more on words like "constitutional amendment" and "supermajority" instead of fads-of-the-day like "post-truth".
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Message 1833759 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 2:16:52 UTC - in response to Message 1833742.  

It took 9 of 13 States to ratify the US Constitution and create the United States government... not 51% of the people.
There is a common misunderstanding that democracy in the US is "majority rules" ... it does not.
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Message 1833771 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 3:15:57 UTC - in response to Message 1833759.  
Last modified: 3 Dec 2016, 3:17:00 UTC

It took 9 of 13 States to ratify the US Constitution and create the United States government... not 51% of the people.
There is a common misunderstanding that democracy in the US is "majority rules" ... it does not.

The issue i was addressing was source of the Fed's authority, States or People, the Constitution says People. The misunderstanding of "democracy" is not isolated to the US, it didn't mean "majority" when invented in Athens, and, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't meant that anywhere since.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1833775 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 3:25:55 UTC

Stat:.............Cannabis won in more States than Hiliary (grin).

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1833780 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 3:58:38 UTC - in response to Message 1833771.  

The issue i was addressing was source of the Fed's authority, States or People, the Constitution says People.


Via the States, Bobby. Via the States.
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Message 1833793 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 5:23:55 UTC - in response to Message 1833759.  

It took 9 of 13 States to ratify the US Constitution and create the United States government... not 51% of the people.
What states? If there wasn't a USA there weren't states. The Continental Congress adopted the Confederation, the constitution of the USA, no states existed when that happened, just colonies.

The wholesale amendment to that Constitution, drawn up by the Constitutional Convention, did require the now existing states to repudiate the old and adopt the new as they were surrendering their sovereignty.

I know the Tea-Trump really hates the Confederation as it points out the USA has already tried huge power to the states and near zero to the Federal government and that test was a failure. That can't admit they are just proposing failure warmed over.
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Message 1833794 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 5:33:34 UTC - in response to Message 1833780.  
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The issue i was addressing was source of the Fed's authority, States or People, the Constitution says People.


Via the States, Bobby. Via the States.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people...in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies,
Don't see the word "state" I see the word "people." I also see the word "Colonies."
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Message 1833803 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 6:32:38 UTC - in response to Message 1833799.  

Uh, I don't know if you noticed but Hillary won the popular vote. She ain't president.

"We the people of the States" doesn't sound as catchy. It's still more true than not though.

And that's a good thing.

- - - - - - -

Maybe you should focus more on words like "constitutional amendment" and "supermajority" instead of fads-of-the-day like "post-truth".

If you didn't notice... More than 50% didn't vote for Hillary.

Therefore... If she happened to get 270 Electoral Votes. She would also be a Minority President.

And your point is?

Just about all election winners are minority leaders in democracies, unless there is a mandatory enforced voting system.
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Message 1833804 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 6:34:56 UTC - in response to Message 1833799.  

Who does the world vote for U.S. president?
https://worldwide.vote/hillary-vs-trump/#/results/total
Rather funny results to me:)
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Message 1833807 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 6:58:06 UTC - in response to Message 1833794.  

Don't see the word "state" I see the word "people." I also see the word "Colonies."


So let me see if I understand this right:

You just managed to abolish the Electoral College just to get your snarky remark fix?

You also forgot the punchline:

these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States
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Message 1833844 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 12:55:57 UTC - in response to Message 1833839.  

BUT, in the USA, it is the State Governments of the several (currently 50) States the CREATES the 'US Federal Government'. It is the sovereignty of the State Governments that CREATES the sovereignty of the Federal Government, under the US Federal Constitution. NOT the other way around.

And there was me thinking the US Constitution's preamble said something about "We the People" (rather than "We the States"). Which States issue passports that are recognized by foreign nations? Which States are able to naturalize new citizens? Why does Section 10 of Article 1 state specific limits on State powers, rather than phrase them as powers voluntarily delegated to the Fed? Why is the US Constitution the Supreme Law of the land (rather than the individual Constitutions of the various States)?

Oh, I forgot, post-truth, 'nuff said.


OH... MY... GOD!!!

And you're a *naturalized* citizen? From the UK? And folks like Gary ask me (in effect) if I'm crazy when I say things like foreigners coming to this country to get away from the problems of their home countries and then expect to have a right to start up those very same problems when they get here?

Did you skip over the phrase "to the states, *respectively*, and to the people..."?

[sarcasm]All hail KING TRUMP![\sarcasm]

No I did not skip those phrases.

Please tell me what problems my post suggests I am bringing?

Please tell me where in the Constitution there's support for MK's apparent belief that it the sovereignty of the Fed comes from the sovereignty of the States.

Seems you are referring to the 10th Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
(from : https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/tenth_amendment)

Where do those powers come from? MK appears to say the States, I say the People .
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1833845 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 13:06:15 UTC - in response to Message 1833780.  

The issue i was addressing was source of the Fed's authority, States or People, the Constitution says People.


Via the States, Bobby. Via the States.

That you say it, does not make it so. I referenced the US Constitution, specifically the Preamble, which shows the sovereignty of the United States comes from the People. The Constitution then lays out which powers shall be provided to each body of the Federal Government, and what's left for the States. Until you can show me otherwise, I'll carry on believing the US Constitution is Supreme, and from it all stems all sovereignty. I suspect the the Civil War suggests history is on my side of this argument, but hey, I'm a foreigner by birth, and only studied the US system of government at a British university.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1833854 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 15:00:45 UTC - in response to Message 1833845.  

OK, one more try. You are playing the chicken and the egg. Yes the egg came first.

But then the egg said: "The States are sovereign."

I'll carry on believing the US Constitution is Supreme, and from it all stems all sovereignty.


The Constitution (for now) ensures you are free to believe anything you want. But the Fed cannot take power away from the States, yet the States DO have ways of taking power over a perpetually temporary Fed.

No-one reigns Supreme. At the best of times Fed & State are equally sovereign, at the worst of times the State officials essentially call the shots.

And again, that's a good thing.
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Message 1833858 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 15:33:15 UTC - in response to Message 1833854.  

But the Fed cannot take power away from the States

marbury vs madison
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Message 1833866 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 15:58:41 UTC - in response to Message 1833858.  

I'll let Jefferson answer that:

"You seem to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."

(Queue Citizens United BTW)
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Message 1833879 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 16:49:59 UTC - in response to Message 1833854.  

OK, one more try. You are playing the chicken and the egg. Yes the egg came first.

But then the egg said: "The States are sovereign."

I'll carry on believing the US Constitution is Supreme, and from it all stems all sovereignty.


The Constitution (for now) ensures you are free to believe anything you want. But the Fed cannot take power away from the States, yet the States DO have ways of taking power over a perpetually temporary Fed.

No-one reigns Supreme. At the best of times Fed & State are equally sovereign, at the worst of times the State officials essentially call the shots.

And again, that's a good thing.

Did not say any one reigns Supreme, I clearly said the US Constitution was. Did not say the Fed could take powers from the States, I said the US Constitution granted powers to the Fed and to the States (it being Supreme, it can do that). The US Constitution lays out the domains (including sovereignty) for the Fed and the States, and the US Constitution's authority comes from the people (not the States). You have not said anything to counter that, so I guess we are in agreement.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1833880 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 16:52:47 UTC

There continues to be a major misunderstanding.

States existed at the end of the Revolutionary war. They were no longer Colonies.
They did not need any special permission to come into being, (except for Vermont).
They each wrote and adopted their own State Constitution as soon as was possible.

The Preamble which is here given so much meaning is NOT an Article and has no legal power.
The Preamble to the Constitution is an introductory, succinct statement of the principles at work in the full text.
It is referred to in countless speeches, judicial opinions, and in a song.
-HOWEVER-
Courts will NOT interpret the Preamble to confer any rights or powers not granted specifically in the Constitution.

Neither people, nor States, nor Federal government get any powers or rights from the Preamble.
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Message 1833881 - Posted: 3 Dec 2016, 16:55:13 UTC - in response to Message 1833871.  

I would just wish, that those posting from other Countries. Would understand that The USA, despite its similarities, is very different from their Countries: Politically, Socially, and in its Military and Civilian Culture.

We know & if you or your ilk want us to stop commenting on your country, pull your fingers out & stop interfering with those countries.

Good luck to those attempting to control, an uncontrollable people.

An uncontrollable people who do their damnedest to control others - Since the end of the cold war, you've no longer become the world's policeman, but a dictatorship. Just like the rest of the West, your politicians have become lackeys to corporations. ..

...well, Brexit & Brexit +++ has burst that bubble.
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