Didn't there used to be something called "within the spirit of the law"

There still is in the UK at least ( have got experiance of the courts here ;-) , duno about civil ( but since when is any case civil ))

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

That's why legal writing can be so much fun. I had a 2 day trial that turn on a comma. It can really change the meaning of something.

Is this an astounding coincidence or the trial you were involved in?
(You're in Cali; this is about as far as one can get in the same country (Maine) but would have been heard in the appellate court in Boston, so I am guessing the former.)

A class-action lawsuit about overtime pay for truck drivers hinged entirely on a debate that has bitterly divided friends, families and foes: The dreaded — or totally necessary — Oxford comma, perhaps the most polarizing of punctuation marks.

What ensued in the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit, and in a 29-page court decision handed down on Monday, was an exercise in high-stakes grammar pedantry that could cost a dairy company in Portland, Me., an estimated $10 million.

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Not related, my case had to do with a house remodel. The terms call for cedar siding and other woods. It was back in about 1983 so I don't recall exactly how it was written, but the builder used pine for the siding and argued that it was allowed under the terms of the contract as other wood. I represented the homeowner and argued that cedar was called out as the primary wood and that "other woods" was intended to allow for trim, door frames, eves, etc. I won.

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I represented the homeowner and argued that cedar was called out as the primary wood and that "other woods" was intended to allow for trim, door frames, eves, etc. I won.

Nice... and definitely seems like the correct judgment based on your summary. So it was an astounding coincidence after all. (Well at least to me.) :^)

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I wrote specs for a living for 5 years

So it's your arse we can all kick for the H&S / Risk Assesment , ISO 9001 b/s then it it Chris ;-)

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

You can file this one under WTF?
Steinway baby grand found in tip.

Steinway pianos cost up to $80,000 new and $20,000 second-hand.
Musician Wil Thomas said he was "shocked and stupefied" when he took his garden waste to the dump on Sunday and found 16-year-old Tui Warihana playing the baby grand piano.
"It was quite surreal. It was like something out of a Tom Waits video clip," he said.
"There was this very competent musician who was sitting on a pile of rubbish playing what appeared to me out of the corner of my eye to be a broken piano."
Mr Thomas said the Steinway baby grand piano sounded in perfect tune.
"This beautiful sound was coming out this beautiful piano in the tropical hell of the Broome tip," he said.
"I expected to hear this tinkling sound of a broken piano.
"This young guy was playing Moonlight Sonata on this piano, which just sounded heavenly."

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Grant
Darwin NT

Might as well start the weekend with a laugh.

A few years ago we had newspaper headlines stating that a glass of red wine a day prevented heart attacks. Then next year we read that drinking red wine causes heart attacks. Then we had, don't drink coffee it causes stomach cancer, then it was do drink coffee it stimulates the brain. So today we have the down market tabloid UK Daily Express proclaiming all over it's front page that drinking 3 cups of tea a day wards off dementia. You couldn't make it up if you tried!!!

Oh but of course they have covered themselves by saying "COULD cut the risk of dementia, research SUGGESTS". Then we find out that the report assessed 957 Chinese by the National University of Singapore. Hardly likely to be the same for Europeans then is it.

Move on folks, nothing to see here.

Research suggests that drinking a half a bottle of whiskey a day on weekends keeps the spiders away.
I dunno, I was never very scared of spiders and only see them late at night.
I suppose I should let them go upon their way.
Of course, some other research suggests that spiders kill you in your sleep.
So, I gave up sleeping some years ago.

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"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

. You couldn't make it up if you tried!!!

You could but the Daily / Sunday Sport shut down a few years ago now :-( , that was the NO 1 workshop paper to be read at tea breaks , closely followed by the Dialy Mail & Sun

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

Did you know that drinking a large gin & tonic every day wards off vampires?

Well, how many vampires have you have you seen around your way lately??

Change the gender and the work schedule, and I am a vampire.

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"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Excuse me my young sir, I beg your pardon???

Well Chris you did post this didn't you ;-)

I wrote specs for a living for 5 years

And i'm fairly sure you did say you " helped " with the rules that " goven " ladders or something like that ;-)

During the 1800's and 1900's Employers were totally ruthless, and were quite happy to run factories and Mills with blatantly unsafe working practices. Workers were considered two a penny and not worth worrying about. Then Asbestosis and Pneumoconiosis hit the headlines and the Unions started getting active. The HSE was formed in 1975. That was fine, it stopped the worst abuses of workplace safety, but they got into their stride and it almost prohibited any manufacrure at all. But then of course the continentals had to muscle in and the ISO lot came into force.

Yep no aruguments from me about that , whatever happend to " Common f -ing sence "

The biggest load of rubbish were and are the COSHH regulations. Unfortunately I was lumbered with being the THQ divisional liaison officer for that. There was I a professional qualified engineer, writing instructions to fully grown adults, that they had to keep snopake thinners in secure cupboards in case people were tempted to sniff them!!

That's practicaly the same as having " this product may contain nuts" on a bag of peanuts , did get told that once in a shop by the assistant , looked at him and said " I'm buying peanuts , there BETTER be some inside the bag matey or i'm going to be very upset " .
It's like the " powers that be" now think everone's incapable of thinkin for themselfs .
H&S was " invented " to make a 10 minute job last a whole morning and you ain't guna tell me any different there :-)



[/quote]

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

H&S was " invented " to make a 10 minute job last a whole morning and you ain't guna tell me any different there :-)

Ain't that the truth!

The days I've had wasted spending with H&S on manual handling & loading. Got fed up with it a few times but the best was some dopey a..w..e droning on & on, so during tea break asked him if he has a FLT certificate or a HGV license. The answer to both was no. 2nd question was "How long you been in your job?" Answer: 7 weeks. 4 of us out of 22 in the class went to the transport manager, letting him know we were not new employees just transfers from Warehousing to Transport.

We didn't go back after tea :-)

The thing is, we told that DH at the start & got nothing but B/S in return.

Sounds like a great match.

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Also the same as a safety label on an electric kettle saying "product get's hot in use". It's got nothing to do with common sense, What it has to do with is unscrupulous lawyers, dopey judges, and money grabbing customers all out for a quick buck.

Somehow you missed the jury in that pile of deserved contempt.

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If I had been your Manager I would have sacked you. And I doubt your Union would had to much to say about it either.

I've never been a member of a union , Maggie " killed" their power back in the 80's with the miners strike and " shredded wheet head Sargill " didn't she ( but she still " stole my milkbottle " ;-( )

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

The days I've had wasted spending with H&S on manual handling & loading

That is a very silly and blinkered attitude.

Firstly, all employers have a duty of care under the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 "to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work" of all their employees.

Secondly, to fulfil that requirement, they necessarily provide employees with safety courses which are usually mandatory to attend as a condition of employment.

Thirdly, they are covering themselves in case an employee has an accident due their own negligence.

We didn't go back after tea :-)

If I had been your Manager I would have sacked you. And I doubt your Union would had to much to say about it either. From my own experience in negotiating with the Unions they are red hot on safety training and procedures, and it is usually down to them more than management, insisting that safety training be provided for their members.

You're despicable & your failure to comprehend the written word is abysmal.

Go back & read my post again. There's a MASSIVE clue there for you as to why it was a waste of time for the 4 of us.

Been a fully paid up Union Member since 1975,

I would of turned 2 in December that year is a while ago now Chris ( ain't saying you're old or anthing ;-) sorry couln't resist there and you DID "open the door" for that mate ;-) )

Unions are necessary to keep management on their toes but they shouldn't be allowed to blackmail the country. The next battle will be the rail unions.

Seams to me " it's the other way round " now Unions holding the country to ransom , ( and throwing a toddler's tantrum when they don't get their own way ( could say the same for some posters but won't go there today ;-) )) ( probably NOT who you're thinking it is b4 you even start anyone , i know who i'm meaning and like it like that so guess away )

Mum just looked online for train tickets to go from home to Ipswich / Liverpool St , Waterloo to Portsmouth hbr station £28 1st class E/W or £ 20 " cattle class " told her she diserves to go 1st , she's 70 and why the fu#k not , travel " in style" .( we both 4t it would be a LOT more ,very plesantly surprised looking online )
The Unions have got a point when it comes to " safety" but they do " live in the 70's" , things change / tech improves etc and everyone has to ADAPT to the changes ,
Ain't rocket science or Nuclear physics is it , i calls it " common sence " and that's fast dissapearin from this country :-(

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

The intention of H&S "rules" is to reduce risk to an acceptable level. Sadly far too many organisations attempt to remove all risk from everything, even when the risk is infinitesimally small. I recall with some amusement a meeting discussing H&S in an office with our client and a two third parties. The chairman was a "wise old man", one the the third parties was represented by a "fresh faced youth of the female persuasion". We were approaching lunch, and everyone was getting bored of this particular person saying "We must remove all risk from this office", I was sat quietly scribbling on my note pad, the chairman was intrigued about what I was doing. This was my opening "You do realise there is a risk we haven;t considered yet", the Chairman looked rather quizzical, I continued, "There is a finite risk that this meeting will be terminated by a London Bus driving through the middle of it". Everyone was all ears now, and Miss Third Party chimed in "Well, how are we going to stop the London bus driving through this room? and how many would it kill?" (She ignored the obvious fact that we were three floors up in a building in Preston) Mr.Chairman said "It wouldn't be very good for any of us here, or the passengers on the bus, I'm sure Mr.Smith can tell you the probability of this sad event" I read off the last line on my bit of paper, zero point <lots and lots of zeros>35678 that this will happen in the next 1000 years". All but one person in the room was in hysterical laughter. Mr.Chairman called the lunch break. During lunch he approached me "Its about time that someone brought her of her pedestal, that was superb." Apparently she resigned a few hours later, but I do hope she has learned the difference between "Hazard", "Probability" and "Risk"

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I do hope she has learned the difference between "Hazard", "Probability" and "Risk"

There lies the problem.

What most non-logistical folks fail to understand is that manual handling & loading is an every day event in Warehousing. There is a right way & a wrong way. Long before H&S stuck their snouts in, many firms trained the right way to prevent delays/injuries/inquiries.

The firm I worked for had a bi-annual instead of an annual refresher, which every body had to attend. Ours were done 10 at a time so that it could all be completed in a morning/afternoon. H&S sticks their snouts in & double the course numbers so that was 20+ workers not producing with 20 man days lost.

Also, everybody had their records marked so that the back office would know who needed training/refreshers. When transferring from one department to another, one's record was checked. Job done!

Often with H&S, failure to check records caused issues. The times I've seen them grab everybody within a department just to make up the numbers :-)

but I do hope she has learned the difference between "Hazard", "Probability" and "Risk"

Cost of mitigation gets in there somewhere.

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