Monday August 29 2016, 1:02 PM

Hi,
Been there, done it, and have a years worth of data. If anyone wants info, just ask?


Stay here on Earth. It's the only planet with DARK CHOCOLATE !!

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Happy to help too.
I managed environmental affairs for construction of the world's larges PV Plant.
Topaz Solar Farms.

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We are happy solar folks too. We got a federal and state tax credit, our power bill is minimal, Eric and I managed to find a balance between trimming my beautiful trees and maximum solar panel exposure and the panels are not nearly as ugly and noticeable as I thought that they would be. We used a local company and we ended up being very pleased with the whole process.

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Hi,

Glad to hear you are happy 'solar folks!' :) Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184. With 14 panels installed our bill for our first full year with solar dropped to $378.

We did not pay cash for our install but financed 70% of the cost @ 3.99% for 12 years. The remaining 30% was paid for by the refund we got from the IRS for going solar. Our monthly payment on our solar loan for our first year totaled $1466. Since we SAVED $1806. by using sun power, the savings covered the monthly payment AND gave us a surplus of $340. back! :) Rather then paying our utility compant the $1466. we are paying ourselves. So, in effect. our solar system is FREE. Yay!

We take data daily at sunset so we know exactly how much we draw FROM "the grid" and how much we pump INTO it. If you're interested in seeing a plot of our data, let me know?

The only question we have that is yet to be resolved is how oftne do you have to have the panels cleaned? Naturally, this depends on exactly where you live and how dirty the panels get. Luckily we are in a clean coastal area 2 miles from the ocean. Some may live in a more commercial area and have to deal with dactory smoke, or some such. The only way we can see to accurately determine how often to clean our panels is by comparing the kWh generated month to month on a daily basis for year 1 to the same data for year 2. we are in process of compiling THAT data.

Does anyone "out there" have data on the expected loss of efficiency in kWh generated in various areas?

Thank you!

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Monday August 29 2016, 2:21 PM

Hi,
Thank you for posting on solar! As you are "in it" commercially, what kind of data, if any, do you have on the month to month loass of efficiency in kWh generation caused by the environmment? Wind, rain, 'bird droppings,' factory effluent, and all that will slowly coat the panels over time and cut down the power generated.

We only have 14 rooftop panels on a 2-story coastal house, and have been quoted about $230. to clean them. Do you have info on businesses who clean solar panels and their fee?

Thank you!

Every day, thousands of INNOCENT plants are killed by vegetarians. Help END the violence. Eat BACON !!

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Topaz has 9 million panels. We agreed to a water saving condition not to clean them. Out testing showed a power loss of only 4-5% at most anyway. Each array has a soiling station that keeps track of soil level and power degradation. Except for bird dropping we found that even the lightest of rains kept the panels clean. As for bird droppings we have a robot that rides the rows of panels and will take care of that if it's an issue.
We do have some installations in India where the amount of dust is significant and we were experiencing a 40-45% loss. You need to fact in the cost to clean. In India, with the low labor cost we saw a cost benefit when we had a 12% or greater loss.

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Monday August 29 2016, 2:35 PM

Here is a plot of the performance of our 14 panel rooftop solar system for 1 full year of operation. We are in a California coastal zone 2 miles from the ocean.




I can EXPLAIN it to you but I can't UNDERSTAND it for you. <giggles>

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Carlos,

Very GOOD information - VERY good indeed! Thank you for sharing !!

Tentatively it looks like we MAY be in the 4 to 5% range also, like you. Our problem is that California is in the midst of a 5 year drought so we have not benefited at all by having rain to help keep our panels clean. This is likely WHY we are seeing the 4 to 5% right now. Given our coastal location, and normal rain fall we expected perhaps a 2% reduction in efficiency.

Curiously enough, and this is a PUZZLE, while our efficiency has dropped 4 to 5% the total power generated in the first month of year 2 versus year 1 has gone UP by 2.52% !! This makes little sense? Global Warming? Hahah. One thing tho MAY account for it: The peak power generated by our panels is only reported to us, over the net, by Enlighten, every 15 minutes during the day and not continuously, minute by minute so this may be the cause? Only time and data from future months will tell.


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Topaz has 9 million panels. We agreed to a water saving condition not to clean them. Out testing showed a power loss of only 4-5% at most anyway. Each array has a soiling station that keeps track of soil level and power degradation. Except for bird dropping we found that even the lightest of rains kept the panels clean. As for bird droppings we have a robot that rides the rows of panels and will take care of that if it's an issue.
We do have some installations in India where the amount of dust is significant and we were experiencing a 40-45% loss. You need to fact in the cost to clean. In India, with the low labor cost we saw a cost benefit when we had a 12% or greater loss.

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184

Wow! That's a lot. We only average around $100 a month in a 1,200 sq. ft. house plus a full basement of the same size. I like the idea of solar but waiting 10 - 15 years to see my costs recouped doesn't make sense to me since new(and cheaper) technologies could be developed during that time, plus from a purely economical standpoint, I'd be better off investing my money in something that pays dividends a lot faster. On the other hand, from a purely healthy planet perspective, I definitely think solar power is a great way to contribute to the good for us all.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184

Wow! That's a lot. We only average around $100 a month in a 1,200 sq. ft. house plus a full basement of the same size. I like the idea of solar but waiting 10 - 15 years to see my costs recouped doesn't make sense to me since new(and cheaper) technologies could be developed during that time, plus from a purely economical standpoint, I'd be better off investing my money in something that pays dividends a lot faster. On the other hand, from a purely healthy planet perspective, I definitely think solar power is a great way to contribute to the good for us all.

The "Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184" is a mistake. The $2184. was our bill for a whole YEAR w/o solar as opposed to $378. for a whole year WITH it.

Our 2 story is about 1950 sq. feet and no garage; they are VERY rare in So. CA. Our system cost $19,500 with 30% covered by a tax refund. As we see it, it's a "no brainer" to buy solar, if you're able. You either pay a big bill monthly to your power company OR you pay down the solar loan with monthly payments. In our case the amount we save each month makes the payments and gives us a surplus. :) It's kinda like the difference between "rent receipts" and a steadily decreasing mortgage when you buy.

Science has found that laughing for 2 minutes is better than 20 minutes of jogging. So now I'm sitting on a bench in the park, laughing at joggers. :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

My last electric bill was $120.98, this was for 810sqft.

The tax breaks don't work for Me, since I'm not allowed to file for such things
by the SSA, My income is not considered taxable by the SSA and by the IRS.

It is sad you can't do what we're doing; sorry to hear that. :(

With solar, as you can see from the graph I posted, the HIGHEST monthly bill for our 1950 sq. foot with A/C home was $119 and typically, for most of the year, was $10 to $30. :)

Have you thought of moving? :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184

Wow! That's a lot. We only average around $100 a month in a 1,200 sq. ft. house plus a full basement of the same size. I like the idea of solar but waiting 10 - 15 years to see my costs recouped doesn't make sense to me since new(and cheaper) technologies could be developed during that time, plus from a purely economical standpoint, I'd be better off investing my money in something that pays dividends a lot faster. On the other hand, from a purely healthy planet perspective, I definitely think solar power is a great way to contribute to the good for us all.

The "Before we went solar our monthly electric bill was $2184" is a mistake. The $2184. was our bill for a whole YEAR w/o solar as opposed to $378. for a whole year WITH it.

Our 2 story is about 1950 sq. feet and no garage; they are VERY rare in So. CA. Our system cost $19,500 with 30% covered by a tax refund. As we see it, it's a "no brainer" to buy solar, if you're able. You either pay a big bill monthly to your power company OR you pay down the solar loan with monthly payments. In our case the amount we save each month makes the payments and gives us a surplus. :) It's kinda like the difference between "rent receipts" and a steadily decreasing mortgage when you buy.

I guess it really comes down to how the money is invested. I think I could benefit more financially in the long run from that $19,500 cash with a wise money advisor. But again, I think the concept of solar power is a win-win for everyone when the technology improves so most people can look at it and say, yeah, that makes sense.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

Buying into solar for me is kind of like buying a Prius. The aim is good, but the math just doesn't work out.

I want solar power to progress and be something everyone can use.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

Buying into solar for me is kind of like buying a Prius. The aim is good, but the math just doesn't work out.

I want solar power to progress and be something everyone can use.

Eric and I both drive a Prius. We call them "P-force One" and "P-force Two". Make of that what you will...

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Check the total number of cloudy days. Depending on where on the coast you are you could have had more cloudy days the first year. June gloom can account for that.

Carlos,

Very GOOD information - VERY good indeed! Thank you for sharing !!

Tentatively it looks like we MAY be in the 4 to 5% range also, like you. Our problem is that California is in the midst of a 5 year drought so we have not benefited at all by having rain to help keep our panels clean. This is likely WHY we are seeing the 4 to 5% right now. Given our coastal location, and normal rain fall we expected perhaps a 2% reduction in efficiency.

Curiously enough, and this is a PUZZLE, while our efficiency has dropped 4 to 5% the total power generated in the first month of year 2 versus year 1 has gone UP by 2.52% !! This makes little sense? Global Warming? Hahah. One thing tho MAY account for it: The peak power generated by our panels is only reported to us, over the net, by Enlighten, every 15 minutes during the day and not continuously, minute by minute so this may be the cause? Only time and data from future months will tell.


===========================

Topaz has 9 million panels. We agreed to a water saving condition not to clean them. Out testing showed a power loss of only 4-5% at most anyway. Each array has a soiling station that keeps track of soil level and power degradation. Except for bird dropping we found that even the lightest of rains kept the panels clean. As for bird droppings we have a robot that rides the rows of panels and will take care of that if it's an issue.
We do have some installations in India where the amount of dust is significant and we were experiencing a 40-45% loss. You need to fact in the cost to clean. In India, with the low labor cost we saw a cost benefit when we had a 12% or greater loss.

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I've had a couple of solar panels on my bat for the last six months. Before they wee installed I was using between £0.50 and £1.00 of electricity a week keeping the fridge running and computer/phone chargers fed. Since installing the panels I've used less than £1.00, this wold probably be less if I didn't run the micorwave for a few minutes a day, and that drags the inverter to life, which kicks the battery charger in.
I'm now considering some panels at home to hit my domestic bill. I will probably look at a battery supported system with an inverter charger similar to the one on the boat.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I am completely amazed that you can report a positive cash flow in an endeavor that has had a history of a long payback period if ever.

What is the rated output of your system and what was your cost for electricity from your power company per KW-Hr ? What is your rate per kilowatt-hour from the Power Company and what rate do you get when you deliver excess to the grid. Some states require re-imbursement at the highest cost method that the power company is employing. When I worked for Pacific Gas and Electric we derived 10% of our energy from The Geysers which was expensive and somewhat of an environmental mess.

Solar is more-easily justified where the cost of electricity is outrageous, government subsidy generous and the re-imbursement rate exceeds the consumption unit cost.

California is going broke in a big way. I trust that solar subsidies are not a big factor in this condition. What is the prognosis for tax increases in recent and near-future years.

If there were a large conversion to solar in California, the utility companies would have to recover their massive fixed costs over fewer units of production. They would therefore raise their rates or go out of business which, I am sure, that the rate commissions would not sanction. So: in a sense electrical energy production might be a zero sum game with the costs being pushed around into different buckets. Poor sucker rate payers in a de-facto Ponzi scheme paying for and subsidizing the more elite consumers of electricity.

Also I presume that you do not work for a solar company.

We had another thread about the fixed cost recovery. The PUC has allowed utilities to recover fix costs. That is one reason that SunEdison and SunPower have pulled out of Arizona. SunEdison even filed BK. In AZ there is no cost benefit. You end up paying more to pay for the fixed costs than what you save with solar.

And yes he/she sounds like a solar sales person.

I am completely amazed that you can report a positive cash flow in an endeavor that has had a history of a long payback period if ever.

What is the rated output of your system and what was your cost for electricity from your power company per KW-Hr ? What is your rate per kilowatt-hour from the Power Company and what rate do you get when you deliver excess to the grid. Some states require re-imbursement at the highest cost method that the power company is employing. When I worked for Pacific Gas and Electric we derived 10% of our energy from The Geysers which was expensive and somewhat of an environmental mess.

Solar is more-easily justified where the cost of electricity is outrageous, government subsidy generous and the re-imbursement rate exceeds the consumption unit cost.

California is going broke in a big way. I trust that solar subsidies are not a big factor in this condition. What is the prognosis for tax increases in recent and near-future years.

If there were a large conversion to solar in California, the utility companies would have to recover their massive fixed costs over fewer units of production. They would therefore raise their rates or go out of business which, I am sure, that the rate commissions would not sanction. So: in a sense electrical energy production might be a zero sum game with the costs being pushed around into different buckets. Poor sucker rate payers in a de-facto Ponzi scheme paying for and subsidizing the more elite consumers of electricity.

Also I presume that you do not work for a solar company.

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I am completely amazed that you can report a positive cash flow in an endeavor that has had a history of a long payback period if ever.

It is a "positive cash flow" in that you either pay your utility company OR you pay yourself. The amount we now pay for electricity is far lower than what we did pay. The difference goes to pay down the loan on 70% of the system cost and, since the monthly payment is less than the savings we get, we have a surplus. :) Look at it like renting a home: After renting for 12 years, what do you have? The answer is "a pile of rent receipts." Since we've gone solar what we have after the 12 year payback period is increased property value AND a monthly electric bill roughly 75% less than 12 years earlier. So, it takes time to payback - so what? The payments are covered by the savings. :) Our system is guaranteed for 25 years. An additional benefit is that we have a FIXED monthly payment on our 12 year loan which makes household budgeting much easier. In the year BEFORE solar, our monthly electric bill varied widely, from $377. one month to ZERO in another! Geez!

What is the rated output of your system and what was your cost for electricity from your power company per KW-Hr ? What is your rate per kilowatt-hour from the Power Company and what rate do you get when you deliver excess to the grid. Some states require re-imbursement at the highest cost method that the power company is employing. When I worked for Pacific Gas and Electric we derived 10% of our energy from The Geysers which was expensive and somewhat of an environmental mess.

Our nominal rated output, for 14 panels, each connected to a 280 watt micro-inverter, is 3.92 kW. Based on the highest net generated power we've seen, 3.49 kW, due to accumulative losses in the panels, inverters, wiring, etc., our system has an efficiency of, roughly, 89%.

It is almost impossible to tell our true "rate per hour" for the electricity itself, as the bill is loaded with many extras like: DWR Bond Charge, Public Purpose Programs, Competition Transition Charge, Reliability Services, TRAC, Distribution, and several more.

If we divide the total amount paid to SDG&E, our electric company, by the kWh used, what we typically pay, at least on this ONE bill I'm looking at, is $0.192/kWh, or 19.2 cents / kWh. But, I do not know IF there is a "seasonal rate change," or an "extra charge for hot days," or what. It is impossible to tell exactly. Suffice it to say that if we pay LESS in a year WITH solar than we did WITHOUT it, we are ahead of the game.

Solar is more-easily justified where the cost of electricity is outrageous, government subsidy generous and the re-imbursement rate exceeds the consumption unit cost.

This is obfuscation, in the sense that we have no way on earth to answer what you ask. The best I can say is: "Oh, I suppose." :) It all depends on your definition of the words "outrageous & generous," and where to find the needed data." :)

California is going broke in a big way. I trust that solar subsidies are not a big factor in this condition. What is the prognosis for tax increases in recent and near-future years.

We did not receive ANY subsidy from the state of California, only the 30% from the federal government. I'm aware that some states DO give a solar buyer a subsidy, but our state does not. I agree completely that California is going broke, but solar has nothing to do with it. We're going broke primarily because we put illegal aliens on welfare, give them free education, medical care, etc. instead of sending them back. :)

If there were a large conversion to solar in California, the utility companies would have to recover their massive fixed costs over fewer units of production. They would therefore raise their rates or go out of business which, I am sure, that the rate commissions would not sanction. So: in a sense electrical energy production might be a zero sum game with the costs being pushed around into different buckets. Poor sucker rate payers in a de-facto Ponzi scheme paying for and subsidizing the more elite consumers of electricity.

You are certainly correct in the above. The large power companies would take steps to protect themselves, and the electric users, those w/o solar, would "take it in the shorts" big time. Those with solar would likely face a prohibitive surcharge that would take away the reason for going solar in the first place. But, if that happened, the solar industry would crash, and, following it, wind power, and all other forms of alternate energy production.

Also I presume that you do not work for a solar company.

No, I do not work for a solar company and I do not know anyone who does. My closest connection with a solar company is via the salesman that PetersenDean, i.e., "Solar for America," sent to our home, a few in their office we conferred with during the installation scheduling process, and the wonderful crew who installed our system in 5 1/2 hours one hot and sunny day in July 2015. :)

Solar is the very BEST investment we have ever made and we are very happy. :)

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River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
"Happy I-Phone girl on the GO GO GO"

Thank you for your thorough reply. It helps immensely. I did figure that you were paying close to 20 cents per kilowatt hour which is what they pay in most of Europe or higher. I presume that you do not have electric heat so on winter days if no one is home cooking or washing clothes you should be able to sell a few dollars of electricity to the grid each day that it is not greatly overcast. i presume that you are getting paid around the same rate for this power that you put into the grid.