Average Credit Decreasing?

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KLiK
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Message 1799863 - Posted: 1 Jul 2016, 6:05:22 UTC
Last modified: 1 Jul 2016, 6:06:54 UTC

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/


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Message 1799912 - Posted: 1 Jul 2016, 14:15:22 UTC - in response to Message 1799863.  

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.
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Message 1799944 - Posted: 1 Jul 2016, 16:18:04 UTC - in response to Message 1799912.  
Last modified: 1 Jul 2016, 16:25:51 UTC

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.

What I see here... ah, consumer-breed generation.
Who will test on beta? Daddy? Sorry, daddy didn't do that. So it come on main...
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Message 1800593 - Posted: 4 Jul 2016, 6:18:02 UTC - in response to Message 1799912.  

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.

OK...but take the SoG & sah offline, if they do more damage than good!

you have cuda23, 32, 40 & 50 to do the job!
while you fix SoG & sah...
;)


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Message 1800711 - Posted: 4 Jul 2016, 16:21:20 UTC - in response to Message 1800593.  
Last modified: 4 Jul 2016, 16:27:43 UTC

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.

OK...but take the SoG & sah offline, if they do more damage than good!

you have cuda23, 32, 40 & 50 to do the job!
while you fix SoG & sah...
;)


As the cuda builds (aka X-branch) are mentioned here in comparison, as the main developer (there are many others that have been involved) since nvidia dropped the ball, I feel I should say something here.

The Cuda codebase is older, and so more mature. There have been some hard lessons learned along the way from version x1. That isn't something you can read about in a text book, or learn at college/uni (though they certainly help).

Try to give the new code a go, and let them learn the hard lessons. For progress to be made, risks need to be taken.

The Cuda builds still have shortcomings too, though less visible, and there is much faster code around now.

The lessons to be learned, I suspect, are about flexibility, compatibility and reliability. These are things that I struggle with looking for ways to make things faster/better as well, so no surprises there will be some devices left cold.
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1800887 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 6:08:29 UTC - in response to Message 1800711.  
Last modified: 5 Jul 2016, 6:08:54 UTC

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.

OK...but take the SoG & sah offline, if they do more damage than good!

you have cuda23, 32, 40 & 50 to do the job!
while you fix SoG & sah...
;)


As the cuda builds (aka X-branch) are mentioned here in comparison, as the main developer (there are many others that have been involved) since nvidia dropped the ball, I feel I should say something here.

The Cuda codebase is older, and so more mature. There have been some hard lessons learned along the way from version x1. That isn't something you can read about in a text book, or learn at college/uni (though they certainly help).

Try to give the new code a go, and let them learn the hard lessons. For progress to be made, risks need to be taken.

The Cuda builds still have shortcomings too, though less visible, and there is much faster code around now.

The lessons to be learned, I suspect, are about flexibility, compatibility and reliability. These are things that I struggle with looking for ways to make things faster/better as well, so no surprises there will be some devices left cold.

of course I do give them a chance...but:

1. when sthg doesn't work, go back to BETAs! don't push it still...it's like "kicking a dead monkey"!

2. please don't be saying that it's quicker code, when my RAC dropped from 5.000 to about 2.000...that's a fact, that also anyone is saying! how can something be quicker, but also making less RAC?!

3. also, several people complained about using a whole core for SoG & sah science...& so far all stuff at SETi@home said is: install Lunatics! well, I don't want Lunatics on my computer...only BOINC with SETi@home attached...which doesn't work well with SoG & sah science!

sometimes I think that people from Microsoft moved to SETi@home?! Or are they picked up on Berkley to go to Microsoft?!
:/


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Message 1800892 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 6:19:42 UTC - in response to Message 1800887.  

2. please don't be saying that it's quicker code, when my RAC dropped from 5.000 to about 2.000...that's a fact, that also anyone is saying! how can something be quicker, but also making less RAC?!

The drop in RAC has to do with the introduction of a new type of WU that takes longer to process.

The applications you dislike so much actually process these WUs much faster than the current CUDA applications (and the older WUs as well).


install Lunatics! well, I don't want Lunatics on my computer...only BOINC with SETi@home attached...which doesn't work well with SoG & sah science!

Lunatics isn't a science application you install- it is an installer.
It allows you to install the application of your choice, and to maintain your current cache & work in progress. If you don't like a particular application, then Lunatics allows you to run the one you do like.
The other option is to manually copy files over & manually edit the necessary configurations files.

I know which option I prefer.
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Message 1800894 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 6:25:52 UTC - in response to Message 1800887.  

Found it...now!

But still feeling contradicting emotions towards SETi@home & it's team...by releasing an app (v8 SoG & sah), which hangs on some nVidia cards...didn't they use BETA for sthg?!
:/

With limited users & hardware participating in SETI@home Beta some issue will not be found until the apps are released to the main project.

OK...but take the SoG & sah offline, if they do more damage than good!

you have cuda23, 32, 40 & 50 to do the job!
while you fix SoG & sah...
;)


As the cuda builds (aka X-branch) are mentioned here in comparison, as the main developer (there are many others that have been involved) since nvidia dropped the ball, I feel I should say something here.

The Cuda codebase is older, and so more mature. There have been some hard lessons learned along the way from version x1. That isn't something you can read about in a text book, or learn at college/uni (though they certainly help).

Try to give the new code a go, and let them learn the hard lessons. For progress to be made, risks need to be taken.

The Cuda builds still have shortcomings too, though less visible, and there is much faster code around now.

The lessons to be learned, I suspect, are about flexibility, compatibility and reliability. These are things that I struggle with looking for ways to make things faster/better as well, so no surprises there will be some devices left cold.

of course I do give them a chance...but:

1. when sthg doesn't work, go back to BETAs! don't push it still...it's like "kicking a dead monkey"!

2. please don't be saying that it's quicker code, when my RAC dropped from 5.000 to about 2.000...that's a fact, that also anyone is saying! how can something be quicker, but also making less RAC?!

3. also, several people complained about using a whole core for SoG & sah science...& so far all stuff at SETi@home said is: install Lunatics! well, I don't want Lunatics on my computer...only BOINC with SETi@home attached...which doesn't work well with SoG & sah science!

sometimes I think that people from Microsoft moved to SETi@home?! Or are they picked up on Berkley to go to Microsoft?!
:/


Indeed I can't comment on those points (so not arguing), since I'm not directly involved with that, but am sure the calibre of people involved will be working towards what you're looking for.

I don't know the mechanism of how or why what perhaps should be beta or alpha makes it to main, but keep in mind that propietary technologies like Cuda, whatever their quality, could justifiably be considered a yoke to an open source codebase.

In all camps, It's a tricky situation when combining fools with tools.
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1800895 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 6:45:43 UTC - in response to Message 1800887.  

Ok, I stayed out of this for a while but here goes, in reverse order


3. also, several people complained about using a whole core for SoG & sah science...& so far all stuff at SETi@home said is: install Lunatics! well, I don't want Lunatics on my computer...only BOINC with SETi@home attached...which doesn't work well with SoG & sah science!
:/


All apps from Seti are Lunatics....

The installer provided by the lunatics team allows you to tailor the applications to your specifications.

You don't have to use it, but some do as it increases their productivity.

If you don't want SoG or Sah, you can eliminate them by opting out in the installer.


2. please don't be saying that it's quicker code, when my RAC dropped from 5.000 to about 2.000...that's a fact, that also anyone is saying! how can something be quicker, but also making less RAC?!


You seem to be under the impression that quicker means better credits.

It doesn't.

CreditNew determines how much credit you get for your work, not the application.

There are whole threads devoted to how "unfair" creditnew is to participants.

I agree with those statements, but it has nothing to do with the apps.

Under the correct tuning, Opencl SoG is faster with BLC work units than cuda.

1. when sthg doesn't work, go back to BETAs! don't push it still...it's like "kicking a dead monkey"!


As such maybe they should have waited until they had all the applications working correctly?

Wouldn't that have been nice.

As explained in another thread, the data we receive has changed.

As that data has changed, so to the applications must change to handle that new data.

The timetable to release the new work wasn't under any local control. (Yes this too was covered in yet another thread.)

The push was make far above anyone here.

The best we can do is play catch up and to that end the applications were pushed to try and handle the new data.

From the post in the news thread, the amount of data we are getting from the new sources is coming in larger and larger amount, whereas the old data source is getting less and less.

The current cuda are ok, but slower than what people were used to.

As Jason mention, there are new test cudas out there but they are just that "test" versions

So where does that leave us?

Right back where we started.

SoG and sah are out there. Testing continues and with Raistmer's continued refinement, hopefully they will get them refined more.

You say you don't want lunatics on your computer, as in my first reply, it's already on your computers.

Stock applications are lunatics.

Using the installer will allow you to opt out of the sah or SoG and run only cuda if that is what you choose.
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Message 1800896 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 6:53:43 UTC - in response to Message 1800895.  

Thanks Zalster, for what IMO is a reasonable and balanced assessment of the situation we find ourselves in.
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1800898 - Posted: 5 Jul 2016, 7:26:46 UTC - in response to Message 1800895.  


1. when sthg doesn't work, go back to BETAs! don't push it still...it's like "kicking a dead monkey"!


As such maybe they should have waited until they had all the applications working correctly?

Wouldn't that have been nice.

As explained in another thread, the data we receive has changed.

As that data has changed, so to the applications must change to handle that new data.

The timetable to release the new work wasn't under any local control. (Yes this too was covered in yet another thread.)

Well, 8.12 was in beta testing more than month. For that time it well proved its performance and correctness and stability for hosts we had feedback from.
And then, after release on main some with "volunteer tester" tag appeared and saying app doesn't work well for his config? And where he was month before?
As I already said daddy can't do check how well you own PC goes, that's beta about. And that's why peoples participating beta granted "volunteer tester" tag. And that's also why if such man whinning on main after more than month silence of beta testing... I think you get the point...
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Message 1801017 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 3:24:54 UTC - in response to Message 1800898.  

That ´volunteer tester´ tag can be somewhat misleading, for example I have never participated in any Beta and still I have that ´volunteer tester´ tag put to my profile.
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Message 1801039 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 6:27:21 UTC

Even for those who want to be active Volunteer Testers, there are no specific instructions in the Beta forum as to what one should be doing.

The only reason I have 3 old laptops crunching there is because I received a Notice in Boinc Manager stating:
SETI@home Beta Test: Distributing 4-bit workunits

and ironically none them have a 4bit tasks being analyzed or in the queue!
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Message 1801045 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 8:33:56 UTC - in response to Message 1801039.  

and ironically none them have a 4bit tasks being analyzed or in the queue!

all currently distributed tasks on beta are 4-bit ones.
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Message 1801055 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 11:29:41 UTC - in response to Message 1801045.  

and ironically none them have a 4bit tasks being analyzed or in the queue!

all currently distributed tasks on beta are 4-bit ones.

@Stubbles69

See for here for reference, then check the file sizes in the project data folder.
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Message 1801134 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 19:52:05 UTC - in response to Message 1801055.  

and ironically none them have a 4bit tasks being analyzed or in the queue!

all currently distributed tasks on beta are 4-bit ones.

@Stubbles69

See for here for reference, then check the file sizes in the project data folder.

Thanks for the link AMDave.

I agree with Tut's reply:
The "2bit" or "8bit" designation in the file name is about the input data that the splitter operated upon. (And it's wrong anyway. The 2bit input data is actually 4 bits per complex sample.)
In the workunit file itself, there's a relatively new entry called wu_bits_per_sample which should be 2 past data, and in the new data should say 4.
Hehe, oh you scientists are complicated :-) And here I thought that the "bit" part in the file name was what it seemed to be.

Why make things simple (short and concise) when it can be complicated (too short or too long, and ambiguous)!!!
I'll try to shake off the little frustrations I've accumulated during the last few days.
Cheers,
Rob ... 8-)
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Message 1801137 - Posted: 6 Jul 2016, 20:05:13 UTC - in response to Message 1801134.  

That's easier than it sounds, because creators are compelled to provide more information than necessary to get the job done. This happens due to insane litigative culture blaming others for their own poor choices. IMO the best bet is to stay well away from that trap, and be productive in society, as opposed to a bloodsucking leach.
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Message 1801261 - Posted: 7 Jul 2016, 8:25:22 UTC - in response to Message 1800892.  

2. please don't be saying that it's quicker code, when my RAC dropped from 5.000 to about 2.000...that's a fact, that also anyone is saying! how can something be quicker, but also making less RAC?!

The drop in RAC has to do with the introduction of a new type of WU that takes longer to process.

The applications you dislike so much actually process these WUs much faster than the current CUDA applications (and the older WUs as well).

if newer WUs get more job done...then, more credit we should have from them!

like we get more credit from CUDA100 (AP) WUs...compared to CUDA50, CUDA40, CUDA32 or CUDA23 jobs...
;)


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Message 1801263 - Posted: 7 Jul 2016, 8:42:37 UTC - in response to Message 1800898.  
Last modified: 7 Jul 2016, 8:43:09 UTC


1. when sthg doesn't work, go back to BETAs! don't push it still...it's like "kicking a dead monkey"!


As such maybe they should have waited until they had all the applications working correctly?

Wouldn't that have been nice.

As explained in another thread, the data we receive has changed.

As that data has changed, so to the applications must change to handle that new data.

The timetable to release the new work wasn't under any local control. (Yes this too was covered in yet another thread.)

Well, 8.12 was in beta testing more than month. For that time it well proved its performance and correctness and stability for hosts we had feedback from.
And then, after release on main some with "volunteer tester" tag appeared and saying app doesn't work well for his config? And where he was month before?
As I already said daddy can't do check how well you own PC goes, that's beta about. And that's why peoples participating beta granted "volunteer tester" tag. And that's also why if such man whinning on main after more than month silence of beta testing... I think you get the point...

I'm a volunteer tester...but I've not tested this SoG or sah WUs...as BETAs do take a lot of work, so shifting to them only when SETi@home WUs dry up (like Linux has in not so distant past)...

so, it's not whining - SoG & sah WUs do give back good results...but on my GT730 use normal 1-2% of CPU (5-10% of core), while on Quadro2000 they take a whole core!
is that normal? NO!
also, it hangs on lower segment of nVidia chipset...like on my GT510!
that's certainly NOT NORMAL for a good app!

you have an "undeveloped app", that you want to say: it's doing OK!
it's still undeveloped app...& SETi@home team should stop SoG & sah apps...& go back to drawing board to correct it!
;)


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Message 1801354 - Posted: 7 Jul 2016, 22:10:05 UTC - in response to Message 1801263.  

Hello KliK,
I don't think I fully understand:
I'm a volunteer tester...but I've not tested this SoG or sah WUs...as BETAs do take a lot of work, so shifting to them only when SETi@home WUs dry up

FYI, I only started crunching with a GPU for S@H 2.5 months ago so I didn't get to experience when SoG & SaH apps were being tested in the S@H Beta project or were initially rolled out as stock apps on the regular S@H project.

From my perspective, it is easy to attach to the S@H Beta project.
Then, it's a bit more complicated to setup the "Resource Share" between projects so that the ratio between S@H & S@H Beta is around 10:1 or even more.
(Also, I think it's possible to configure the Beta project to only process tasks on the GPU)
At that point, your PCs with not-too-recent GPUs would process a few tasks a week on S@H Beta, which I think would be sufficient to be considered an active "volunteer tester".

From my limited experience as a new "volunteer tester", I personally feel that there could be better communication/instructions (from those at Berkeley?) wrt what is expected of "volunteer testers"...but maybe I just showed up on S@H Beta after the storm you are referring to.

Am I missing something from your perspective?

Cheers,
Rob :-)
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