Average Credit Decreasing?

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Kevin Olley

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Message 1790483 - Posted: 26 May 2016, 7:46:52 UTC - in response to Message 1789543.  


But, since it is as broken for everybody else as it is for me, it still allows some comparison between myself and all others here on Seti.


Except for the people who are abandoning all GPU Green Bank work. Saw a dude on the first page of the top computer stat page who, between his 4 computers, has abandoned almost 2000 tasks to keep his precious RAC up. That's getting to the point of absurdity IMHO...

Chris

Well actually if you look since the 19th May it is 3,990 tasks.

If top users all start doing that we will start getting 10 "abandons" and the tasks will be lost.

Worrying.


I have looked a couple of times at the task names and have seen a few _2's most are inconclusives or error while computing, only one has been aborted.

Hopefully this practice will not become widespread.
Kevin


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Message 1791141 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 4:00:44 UTC - in response to Message 1791138.  

More and more top users are now aborting GBT VLARs from their GPU's, en masse. It's thousands and thousands of WU's that has to be sent out again.

Maybe if they hold off sending out any more Arecibo WUs till all the VLAR aborters have left, then start sending out the Arecibo work again.
And maybe they need to reset the resend number on WUs so that an Abort of a WU doesn't count against the number of replications. Otherwise WUs will end up not being processed.
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Message 1791142 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 4:01:29 UTC
Last modified: 28 May 2016, 4:07:25 UTC

Perhaps it's just my ignorance showing again. but to somewhat improve the situation, would it not be possible to undo the misassignment of GUPPI VLARs to GPUs while CPUs are getting Arecibo MB tasks?

It appears that the file that controls this is sched_request_setiathome.berkeley.edu.xml in the project folder. As well, there are boinc_task_state.xml state files while they are processing.

GPU-assigned work units show:
<app_version>1</app_version>
<plan_class>opencl_nvidia_sah</plan_class>


whereas CPU-assigned show simply:

<app_version>0</app_version>


It would appear that if this file were loaded, instances of each counted and then switched if there were both GPU "guppi" units and non-guppi CPU units (as the count has to remain the same of each... 100 max. per CPU and GPU), ensuring that they weren't present in any of the boinc_task_state.xml.

Problem is if this was being done constantly we'd wind up in the same situation because eventually they would be all slow guppis, the faster non-guppis having been reassigned to GPUs and completed. So, maybe every few hours would be ideal.
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Message 1791145 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 4:24:26 UTC - in response to Message 1791142.  

Perhaps it's just my ignorance showing again. but to somewhat improve the situation, would it not be possible to undo the misassignment of GUPPI VLARs to GPUs while CPUs are getting Arecibo MB tasks?

It would just be another temporary work around IMHO.
Once all the Arecibo data is gone, all that's left would be Guppies.

I figure once they start splitting Guppie AP WUs then all those that left will come back for the Credit orgy that is AP.
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Message 1791149 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 4:35:45 UTC - in response to Message 1791145.  
Last modified: 28 May 2016, 4:38:39 UTC

Perhaps it's just my ignorance showing again. but to somewhat improve the situation, would it not be possible to undo the misassignment of GUPPI VLARs to GPUs while CPUs are getting Arecibo MB tasks?

It would just be another temporary work around IMHO.
Once all the Arecibo data is gone, all that's left would be Guppies.

I figure once they start splitting Guppie AP WUs then all those that left will come back for the Credit orgy that is AP.


Especially since stock AP cpu doesn't include AVX optimisations that break creditNew normalisation (more than what SSE-SSE41 do anyway), and any GBT AP implementations are bound to require working in trickles or similar.

Everything I look at seems to be telling me that the designer(s) has/have no idea that the normalisation step completely reverses the best of intentions, when the stock CPU application receives optimisations.

At the same time I really find it difficult to comprehend that only the users would notice multiple stepwise credit drops for the same work (in the energy sense), despite escalating processing throughput and improving application efficiency. Something fishy about that.
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Message 1791236 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 11:28:38 UTC - in response to Message 1791138.  

Forgive me guys, but as the one who started this thread with a simple enquiry about RAC's falling (where the feedback/discussion for a non-techie like me has been very informative) let me pitch in.
Many of the comments make me wonder why we are doing this BOINC stuff? Is it for science or personal glory? FWIW I prefer to make my own stats of Tasks completed daily.
Aborting WUs because they don't generate as much credit (or Brownie Points as we might say here in the UK) doesn't help crunch the data which gets us closer to actually finding SETI.
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Message 1791238 - Posted: 28 May 2016, 12:14:09 UTC - in response to Message 1791236.  

Forgive me guys, but as the one who started this thread with a simple enquiry about RAC's falling (where the feedback/discussion for a non-techie like me has been very informative) let me pitch in.
Many of the comments make me wonder why we are doing this BOINC stuff? Is it for science or personal glory? FWIW I prefer to make my own stats of Tasks completed daily.
Aborting WUs because they don't generate as much credit (or Brownie Points as we might say here in the UK) doesn't help crunch the data which gets us closer to actually finding SETI.


Think most of us agree with that sentiment (at least as far as I can tell), but at the same time I think change is harder for some than others. There are legitimate challenges for the project, and us volunteer developers. I suspect if the cherrypicking starts to adversely affect results noticeably, then the project may do something (an option/switch was mentioned as being looked at). As a developer, the only bad option at the moment would be to remove processing of these across the board. That's just because a handful of testers and machines can only reveal so much about the problems and options.
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1791752 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:08:05 UTC - in response to Message 1789238.  

"Credit" should reflect the real work done, so every machine - regardless of it's speed - should "earn" the same amount (for this unit!). If a machine is slower, it gets less credit just because it can't crunch as much units, as a faster machine - simple as that. Same work - same credit.

Unfortunately at this time credit is "magically guessed" by some highly scientifically blown up "wannabe all in one" algorithm, that is in reality simply a magnificent complicated random number generator - really good for nothing at all.


. . That seems to be the major consensus of opinion (heavily borne out by the facts).
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Message 1791755 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:20:15 UTC

People who abort work just because they don't like it........

Screw them. They do not give a shit about this project and it's goals.

I am very angry with them.

You be on notice now....


I have one exception, and he knows who he is.
I granted him his bit, because he was working to a certain goal.

I have always regarded my RAC to be a barometer of how much I have contributed to this project. It seems that is no longer properly reflects how much.
And I can accept that.

The kitties are crunching all work sent, without exception.
It ain't pretty, but it is my commitment to this project.
If it needs to be analyzed, I shall do it.

Any bunghole that cherry picks their work to make themselves proud....take a hike to another project, please.
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Message 1791756 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:21:23 UTC - in response to Message 1789276.  
Last modified: 29 May 2016, 17:22:07 UTC

The app does not have a "bug" in it as you keep espousing. The VLAR wu's are not the same type of signal as mid-range or very high range angle ranged wu's. Both of those types are moving across the sky to put it very simply, the larger the number the "faster" it passes a point in the sky. The MB app has several types of "apps" within it to search for signals, the split of computation time each of these kernels takes of the overall computation time is in part driven by the angle range. In the case of VLARs, where the telescope is looking at a pinpoint location the sky for a long time, there's a whole lot of time spent looking for pulses. There's a limit to how parallelized you can make those pulse searches. That's the high level gist of how the all works and is working as designed.

There's no bug in the app but some architectures do pulse finding more efficiently than others. The current Cuda app struggles with it, making the computer laggy and that is why for a very long time VLARS were kept off the GPU's even though AMD cards running OpenCL were not adversely impacted by VLARs. The developers recently released a pen OpenCL app for the nvidia cards to overcomes the lag issue, making it viable to reintroduce VLAR to the GPUs on the main project. It doesn't really change the fact they take longer to run, but that's not a bug, that's do to the reasons I described above. Further optimization will likely be possible over time but in the mean time it was better to release an app that allowed the entire community to contribute to the Green Bank data, as it will soon make up the majority of the work we have to do. The only reason you are seeing a drop in RAC is because CN does not correctly give credit for work done and in introducing the new wu's we are going to see a lot of oscillation in the RAC granted on any given wu. I've seen VLARs get 60 points and others get 200 for the same amount of work. Eventually that variation will likely settle down but our overall RAC will almost certainly always be lower the more optimized our apps gets, because it is what is flawed...

I rambled on way more that I intended, but I didn't want other people having the misconception that there was a "bug" in the app that was causing the credit drop. That is catigorically incorrect.

Chris


. . As you mentioned one of the reasons ATI/AMD cards are less affected is because they run Open_CL tasks and not CUDA. But Nvidia cards also run Open_CL, and VLARs run as Open_CL tasks on my Nvidia cards have about half the time dilation effect of VLARs run as CUDA tasks. So for the interest of efficiency surely they should be distributed to Nvidia equipped hosts as Open_CL too, not as CUDA??

. . And both issues form the complete reason why RACs are crashing so badly, bloated run times exacerbated by inconsistent credit ratings.
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Message 1791761 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 17:40:02 UTC - in response to Message 1791236.  

Forgive me guys, but as the one who started this thread with a simple enquiry about RAC's falling (where the feedback/discussion for a non-techie like me has been very informative) let me pitch in.
Many of the comments make me wonder why we are doing this BOINC stuff? Is it for science or personal glory? FWIW I prefer to make my own stats of Tasks completed daily.
Aborting WUs because they don't generate as much credit (or Brownie Points as we might say here in the UK) doesn't help crunch the data which gets us closer to actually finding SETI.



. . So I am not the only one who calls them that! :)

. . But I am a fan of efficiency, and tactics that create or cause longer processing time for no valid reason offend me. Since making VLARs (particularly Guppis) run as CUDA tasks can reduce the output of the Nvidia resources available to SETI by extending runtimes by about 400%, then it is ridiculous to press on down that path. The eccentricities of Nvidia cards that make that happen are not going to change but they do also run Open_CL and while still slower than normal AR work they cause only about a 100% increase in runtimes. Which makes the use of CUDA apps to run Guppis (VLARs) seem particularly ridiculous.
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Message 1791763 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 18:02:02 UTC - in response to Message 1791761.  
Last modified: 29 May 2016, 18:02:27 UTC

There is a valid reason.
The Guppi tasks simply contain more work that previously issued.
That should be a good thing for us all....more information processed.

This is why we are here, buddy.
We are here, most of us, for the duration of the project.
It does not matter to us how long it takes really, given the eons it has taken for this information to get here.
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Message 1791765 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 18:17:56 UTC - in response to Message 1791763.  
Last modified: 29 May 2016, 18:19:42 UTC

There is a valid reason.
The Guppi tasks simply contain more work that previously issued.

Actually, Stephen's point is valid.

The guppi VLAR tasks 'contain' - or perhaps more properly, 'require' - less work to process than Arecibo VLAR tasks, as can be seen by running both types of tasks with the same CPU app on the same CPU. I'm not sure quite why that should be the case - I wish we could have some input from somebody like Joe Segur on the subject - but it's a consistent observation here.

Aborting tasks still isn't the long-term solution to the inefficiency, though.

(personally, I call them Gollum Points - "Mine, all mine, my precious")
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Message 1791795 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 19:49:38 UTC - in response to Message 1791765.  

Are you determining more or less work based on elapsed time ? because the CPU code is exceptionally efficient for that long/deep pulsefinding, making the communications (memory access) cost relatively low compared to our familiar Arecibo Shorties that tend to thrash CPU cache.

It *could* clarify some things, if you're able to monitor CPU core temperature running a single Guppi VLAR, versus core temp with an Arecibo VHAR, then compare cpu_time/deltaTfromIdle. Could be tricky to get something consistent/meaningful, but maybe worthwhile for the sakes of confirming the true work.
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Message 1791798 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 19:57:50 UTC - in response to Message 1791795.  
Last modified: 29 May 2016, 20:03:47 UTC

Are you determining more or less work based on elapsed time ? because the CPU code is exceptionally efficient for that long/deep pulsefinding, making the communications (memory access) cost relatively low compared to our familiar Arecibo Shorties that tend to thrash CPU cache.

It *could* clarify some things, if you're able to monitor CPU core temperature running a single Guppi VLAR, versus core temp with an Arecibo VHAR, then compare cpu_time/deltaTfromIdle. Could be tricky to get something consistent/meaningful, but maybe worthwhile for the sakes of confirming the true work.

No - not that, I said nothing about shorties or VHAR.

The comparison - yes, on elapsed time - was between guppi VLAR and Arecibo VLAR - which I was expecting, a priori to be comparable.

And of course, when I call up Valid tasks for computer 5828732, the difference is nothing like as striking as I remember.....

Edit - on that current data, guppi averages about 7.5% quicker than Arecibo.
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Message 1791802 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 20:11:00 UTC - in response to Message 1791765.  

There is a valid reason.
The Guppi tasks simply contain more work that previously issued.

Actually, Stephen's point is valid.

The guppi VLAR tasks 'contain' - or perhaps more properly, 'require' - less work to process than Arecibo VLAR tasks, as can be seen by running both types of tasks with the same CPU app on the same CPU. I'm not sure quite why that should be the case - I wish we could have some input from somebody like Joe Segur on the subject - but it's a consistent observation here.

Aborting tasks still isn't the long-term solution to the inefficiency, though.

(personally, I call them Gollum Points - "Mine, all mine, my precious")

I miss Joe's insights.
Anybody ever find out where Joe went?
I would like to think that he still haunts this place and understands that he is missed.
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Message 1791807 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 20:24:03 UTC - in response to Message 1791798.  

Are you determining more or less work based on elapsed time ? because the CPU code is exceptionally efficient for that long/deep pulsefinding, making the communications (memory access) cost relatively low compared to our familiar Arecibo Shorties that tend to thrash CPU cache.

It *could* clarify some things, if you're able to monitor CPU core temperature running a single Guppi VLAR, versus core temp with an Arecibo VHAR, then compare cpu_time/deltaTfromIdle. Could be tricky to get something consistent/meaningful, but maybe worthwhile for the sakes of confirming the true work.

No - not that, I said nothing about shorties or VHAR.

The comparison - yes, on elapsed time - was between guppi VLAR and Arecibo VLAR - which I was expecting, a priori to be comparable.

And of course, when I call up Valid tasks for computer 5828732, the difference is nothing like as striking as I remember.....


What I'm getting at, is if GuppiVLAR gives lower-time/higherDeltaT (i.e. run hotter for shorter), and AreciboVLAR gives longer-time/lowerDeltaT (cooler for longer), and both ratios are similar, then there is a search efficiency impact, rather than useful computation work difference. If the ratios come out vastly different, then it'd be a parameter+data driven difference rather than an efficiency one.

My curveball of throwing in the VHAR, was that we know fundamentally VHAR are less computationally efficient on CPU than VLAR, due to memory accesses, therefore a lower ratio on these of cpu_time/deltaT would be expected, therefore confirmation/validation if something sensible or weird and unexpected showed up....
Like say the Guppis ran faster without generating more heat but did more operations.
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Message 1791809 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 20:28:16 UTC - in response to Message 1791798.  

Edit - on that current data, guppi averages about 7.5% quicker than Arecibo.


Ah, that narrow. a degree or two hotter ?
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Message 1791810 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 20:29:28 UTC - in response to Message 1791807.  

As chance would have it, I've got no Arecibo VLARs in the cache on that machine at the moment. But I do have TThrottle running (in display-only mode, not actively throttling), so I'll make notes if I see any passing through.
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Message 1791817 - Posted: 29 May 2016, 20:47:57 UTC - in response to Message 1791810.  
Last modified: 29 May 2016, 20:48:36 UTC

As chance would have it, I've got no Arecibo VLARs in the cache on that machine at the moment. But I do have TThrottle running (in display-only mode, not actively throttling), so I'll make notes if I see any passing through.


Cheers, positive or negative results could end up unimportant, or have some clues buried in there. [One of those things that triggers a 'that's odd', feeling]
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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