Average Credit Decreasing?

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WezH
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Message 1780139 - Posted: 18 Apr 2016, 17:18:31 UTC - in response to Message 1780058.  

Exactly. Having the biggest penis is perceived as important, so we must strive to do so. [Edit: FOR SCIENCE!!!!]


And there comes Bitcoin Utopia.... Well, exclude the "FOR SCIENCE"...
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Message 1780146 - Posted: 18 Apr 2016, 17:40:23 UTC - in response to Message 1780139.  

Exactly. Having the biggest penis is perceived as important, so we must strive to do so. [Edit: FOR SCIENCE!!!!]


And there comes Bitcoin Utopia.... Well, exclude the "FOR SCIENCE"...


Is bitcoin still a thing ? I thought they ran out of blockchain space ?
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1780149 - Posted: 18 Apr 2016, 17:44:14 UTC

it's really good for amassing boinc credits
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Message 1780183 - Posted: 18 Apr 2016, 20:46:59 UTC

Well, if anyone here wants to discuss the credits, there's a new thread started here at the BOINC forums by someone from Gridcoin, who wants to know what the next gen credit should do and look like.

Good luck.
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Message 1780264 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 3:57:55 UTC - in response to Message 1780183.  

Well, if anyone here wants to discuss the credits, there's a new thread started here at the BOINC forums by someone from Gridcoin, who wants to know what the next gen credit should do and look like.

Good luck.


Better get started on the Essay response a bit later...
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1780280 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 5:28:51 UTC

That will make two essays they have to read, I've just started mine...
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Message 1780321 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 7:34:34 UTC

Aller guten Dinge sind drei? All good things come in threes?

But I'll wait for you both ;)
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. (Mark Twain)
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Message 1780328 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 7:51:40 UTC - in response to Message 1780183.  

Well, if anyone here wants to discuss the credits, there's a new thread started here at the BOINC forums by someone from Gridcoin, who wants to know what the next gen credit should do and look like.

Good luck.

Why not just fix the existing one?
From what I remember, what we had prior to Credit New was pretty good; payment for MB work was roughly on par with AP.
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Message 1780337 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 8:28:16 UTC - in response to Message 1780328.  
Last modified: 19 Apr 2016, 8:36:37 UTC

Well, if anyone here wants to discuss the credits, there's a new thread started here at the BOINC forums by someone from Gridcoin, who wants to know what the next gen credit should do and look like.

Good luck.

Why not just fix the existing one?
From what I remember, what we had prior to Credit New was pretty good; payment for MB work was roughly on par with AP.


"Fixing the Existing one", for the purposes here, is roughly on par with fine tuning and complete re-engineering. It's a question of how much you refine or change completely, depending on Whether functional is good enough, or excellence is warranted. [I'd be pretty happy with mediocre...]
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1780351 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 8:59:10 UTC - in response to Message 1780337.  

"Fixing the Existing one", for the purposes here, is roughly on par with fine tuning and complete re-engineering. It's a question of how much you refine or change completely, depending on Whether functional is good enough, or excellence is warranted. [I'd be pretty happy with mediocre...]

I suspect that would a whole lot easier than redefining what credit is & how it's determined & granted.

If you re-define the what & how of credit then that would be a whole new series of issues to be found & resolved, just to get back to where we are now.
Grant
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Message 1780352 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 9:01:47 UTC - in response to Message 1780351.  

"Fixing the Existing one", for the purposes here, is roughly on par with fine tuning and complete re-engineering. It's a question of how much you refine or change completely, depending on Whether functional is good enough, or excellence is warranted. [I'd be pretty happy with mediocre...]

I suspect that would a whole lot easier than redefining what credit is & how it's determined & granted.

If you re-define the what & how of credit then that would be a whole new series of issues to be found & resolved, just to get back to where we are now.



I agree. No need to redefine what a cobblestone is, change its value etc, just restore the stated intent. I'm more concerned with the intertwined estimate mechanism, which has several classic engineering instabilities.
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Message 1780377 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 11:20:39 UTC

Just from my perspective my 2 rigs (though change 3570K with Q6600@3GHz, same GPU's) use to pull around 90K RAC under MB V6 only and that dropped to 64K RAC under MB V7. I'm still doing personal tests with MB V8 to see what impact it has.

It would just be nice to have a standard baseline that could be comparable across all MB versions.

I also remember when doing AP's was a penalty. ;-)

Cheers.
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Message 1780403 - Posted: 19 Apr 2016, 13:28:23 UTC - in response to Message 1780352.  
Last modified: 19 Apr 2016, 13:40:13 UTC

... If you re-define the what & how of credit then that would be a whole new series of issues to be found & resolved, just to get back to where we are now.


I agree. No need to redefine what a cobblestone is, or change its value etc, just restore the stated intent. I'm more concerned with the intertwined estimate mechanism, which has several classic engineering instabilities.


(In summary, ramble... ramble... no easy fix. Against my engineering perfectionism, I also agree easiest is to stabilize the present system...)



Rambling:

There are a few good puns defining the cobblestone...

Which are a reminder to check whether we are measuring what is intended...


Some notes that would make for a long essay:

  • The cobblestone is a unit of floating-point + integer operations done. Yet, there are other compute aspects that incur a resource cost such as network and storage utilisation;

  • Should other aspects be rewarded such as turn-around time and reliability and availability?

  • There are other projects other than s@h, some of which have minimal computation and for which the cobblestone is a poor measure if only arithmetic operations are counted;

  • There appears to be arbitrary 'other interpreted value' imposed upon the cobblestone unit used by other projects to give a level of 'feel-good' fiddle factor to the cobblestone counts given.

  • And there is cobblestone deflation in CreditNew dependent on what is seen to be the average cobblestone measured machine. What happens to CPU users when that machine is eventually seen to be a vastly more numerical capable GPU?...



Hence, should we set up a sort of exchange market of the 'cobblestone' to balance what 'cobblestone reward' should be given for other values outside of merely counting the arithmetic operations executed?...


My own engineering view is that we should directly measure in cobblestones for all aspects that we feel should be somehow rewarded. However, with our present structure that would be a huge diversion of effort from more immediate science.

Hence, the CreditNew automatically rationalising/levelling between projects is a good enough fix... Even if a fragile fix...


And then further, we have great disparity of capability between CPUs, GPUs, GPGPUs, and new hardware soon to come...

What should we really be 'rewarding'?

The electrical power people consume for the project, regardless of efficiency/effectiveness? Or should we reward for providing results?...


OK... That's my lunchtime ramble. No easy fix.

Is there a student online willing to pick up the idea of making the cobbleston NIST-based?... ;-) Having a reliable measure based on reality would be useful to be able to more easily compare hardware performance... :-)


Happy crunchin',
Martin


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Message 1780516 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 2:36:57 UTC - in response to Message 1780403.  

Since the introduction of Green Bank data, RAC has fallen circa 20-25%. Anyone else noticed a similar effect ... its almost been a gradual roll down
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Message 1780530 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 4:14:17 UTC - in response to Message 1780516.  

I have seen 20% or more decrease, but that can also be because with all this GBT data to crunch, the AP splitting is far longer between runs.
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Message 1780536 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 4:38:26 UTC - in response to Message 1780530.  

I don't think it is due to the lack of AP. When they are up I tend to not get many of them anyway so I don't think it has a large bearing on the issue at hand ... could be wrong though ...
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Message 1780544 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 5:17:08 UTC

Somewhere around the 20% fall, while some of that can be attributed to the lack of APs a quick look at the returns for guppi units suggests that they are bout 25% down per hour - The CreditScrew algorithm is working as implemented and NOT coping with new types of work correctly. Even as designed it would be hard pressed to cope it is such a poor algorithm...
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Message 1780587 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 7:11:24 UTC - in response to Message 1780544.  

Has this been run up the flag pole to others ????
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Message 1780590 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 7:17:22 UTC
Last modified: 20 Apr 2016, 7:20:28 UTC

Is the FFTW library distributed with the Stock CPU application updated over the v7 similar variant ? [increased] Transition to AVX support in that reference app alone can account for a ~20%+ drop, since CreditNew will claim >100% efficiency through a design flaw (downscaling everyone else)
"Living by the wisdom of computer science doesn't sound so bad after all. And unlike most advice, it's backed up by proofs." -- Algorithms to live by: The computer science of human decisions.
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Message 1780606 - Posted: 20 Apr 2016, 8:34:05 UTC - in response to Message 1780590.  

Is the FFTW library distributed with the Stock CPU application updated over the v7 similar variant ? [increased] Transition to AVX support in that reference app alone can account for a ~20%+ drop, since CreditNew will claim >100% efficiency through a design flaw (downscaling everyone else)

There's been no change in the stock app since January, and the data distribution didn't start until April. If people are being precise in their statements that the credit drop happened when the data arrived (April not January), that can't be the explanation.
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Message boards : Number crunching : Average Credit Decreasing?


 
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