Average Credit Decreasing?

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Chris Adamek
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Message 1781459 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 1:10:41 UTC - in response to Message 1781456.  

Decrease across the board here as well, was at 220,000 RAC now at 206k though my rank among participants is unchanged. Sigh. I know it's "only RAC" but still getting pretty old...

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Message 1781466 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 1:20:31 UTC - in response to Message 1781456.  

I emphasised that section, as in the past, credit was granted for work done, not validated work.

When was that?
I'm pretty sure that was one of the first things done when Seti move to BOINC, the whole idea (to combat cheating) was that people would be given credit for work done- but it had to be validated before they would actually get the credit, not just returning WUs as was the case before the introduction of Credit.
It used to the case that the Credit column would show as Claimed Credit with the amount claimed in the column when WUs were pending or inconclusive. These days it just shows as pending, not the amount claimed.
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Message 1781471 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 1:45:36 UTC - in response to Message 1781393.  

Maybe we should go back to the something like set amount of credit for VALIDATED work. That would resolve a lot of things.

I agreed.
This way when you add something new to the mix like GBT, it doesn't ripple the credit system that's in place. GBT is great thing for SETI, too bad the start of GBT is shadowed with low RAC complaints. Somewhere the KISS was lost in the credit system.

RAC means "0" to most of my family or friends. All they know what I do for SETI is look for ET. They could care less if I was in first or last in RAC. When I try to explain, all they hear is the science of SETI, which it truly is. Not RAC. Bottom line for me is I love the science, way more than the current credit system.

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Message 1781482 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 2:18:10 UTC

I just had my first GUPPI GPU task validate; http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=4877746625
WU true angle range is : 0.306775
Run time: 5 min 48 sec
CPU time: 5 min 40 sec
Validate state: Valid
Credit: 60.22

That is about Half of what the Arecibo Tasks with that Angle Range would pay.
Surprisingly it's also about what I got when I ran a CPU GUPPI on my GPU last week.

I'm afraid things may get much worse very soon...or maybe not.
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Message 1781483 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 2:23:17 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 2:24:18 UTC

The kitties are crunching as hard as they can.............
And my RAC is still dropping.

Even with some APs dropped into the kibble bowl today, it ain't lookin' pretty.

Meowouch.
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Message 1781488 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 2:34:40 UTC - in response to Message 1781484.  

If that happens, then will we get credit for not crunching?? lol..
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Message 1781493 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 2:59:50 UTC - in response to Message 1781488.  

If that happens, then will we get credit for not crunching?? lol..

Dunno.
As much as I love the project and crunch hard for it, I am not completely sure if there was not SOME recognition given what would happen.

Meow.
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Message 1781507 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 3:48:58 UTC - in response to Message 1781493.  

If that happens, then will we get credit for not crunching?? lol..

Dunno.
As much as I love the project and crunch hard for it, I am not completely sure if there was not SOME recognition given what would happen.

Meow.


I would trade all my Cobblestones for cleaned up adaptive estimates. That would give me a reliable way to monitor and compare machines, apps, devices, users, etc, and clean up the forums a lot, lol
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Message 1781511 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 3:56:01 UTC - in response to Message 1781507.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 3:56:43 UTC

If that happens, then will we get credit for not crunching?? lol..

Dunno.
As much as I love the project and crunch hard for it, I am not completely sure if there was not SOME recognition given what would happen.

Meow.


I would trade all my Cobblestones for cleaned up adaptive estimates. That would give me a reliable way to monitor and compare machines, apps, devices, users, etc, and clean up the forums a lot, lol

I would give a lot to see the Boinc credit system somehow equalized amongst all Boinc projects, thereby forcing users to select their project based upon the project's merit, and not based upon the number of credits they can crow about.
I realize that given the different nature of work issued by different projects, this would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
But stopping some projects from issuing credits at their whim might find them less interesting to the credit whore crunchers. And maybe some of the more scientifically significant ones, such as Seti, would see a rise in popularity.
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Message 1781572 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 6:54:16 UTC - in response to Message 1781482.  
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 6:54:38 UTC

I just had my first GUPPI GPU task validate; http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=4877746625
WU true angle range is : 0.306775
Run time: 5 min 48 sec
CPU time: 5 min 40 sec
Validate state: Valid
Credit: 60.22

That is about Half of what the Arecibo Tasks with that Angle Range would pay.
Surprisingly it's also about what I got when I ran a CPU GUPPI on my GPU last week.

I'm afraid things may get much worse very soon...or maybe not.


I have an Arecibo 0.41 task here: http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=4878143709 it is run on a 780 in 3:25 and gives 89.41 credits.
Here is a guppi 0.30 http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=4878232504 and its runtime on a 780 is 2:50 and it gives 68.72 credits.

So guppi tasks are faster to process even with a lower angle rate.
To overcome Heisenbergs:
"You can't always get what you want / but if you try sometimes you just might find / you get what you need." -- Rolling Stones
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Message 1781575 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 7:07:19 UTC - in response to Message 1781484.  

Negative credit is not far away now. The more we crunch the less credit we will get. Each day crunching will take away credit from our total credit :-)

CreditNew what a wonderful invention.

Actually we already had negative credit granted when CreditNew first rolled out.
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Message 1781580 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 7:33:58 UTC - in response to Message 1781511.  

If that happens, then will we get credit for not crunching?? lol..

Dunno.
As much as I love the project and crunch hard for it, I am not completely sure if there was not SOME recognition given what would happen.

Meow.


I would trade all my Cobblestones for cleaned up adaptive estimates. That would give me a reliable way to monitor and compare machines, apps, devices, users, etc, and clean up the forums a lot, lol

I would give a lot to see the Boinc credit system somehow equalized amongst all Boinc projects, thereby forcing users to select their project based upon the project's merit, and not based upon the number of credits they can crow about.
I realize that given the different nature of work issued by different projects, this would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.
But stopping some projects from issuing credits at their whim might find them less interesting to the credit whore crunchers. And maybe some of the more scientifically significant ones, such as Seti, would see a rise in popularity.

Out of all the projects I have crunched for it seems most of them go with a fixed amount of credit for their tasks. Those projects also tend to have rather uniform work as well.
Some projects also seem to utilize the processing hardware more than others. So having an adjusted credit value to reflect that seems appropriate. As they are getting more work done. But when I see I can use a single GPU on a project and see it, in a single day, generate 24,000, 600,000, or 5,000,000 credit on different projects. Then something defiantly seems wonky.
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Message 1781601 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 9:14:48 UTC

I totally agree with last posts by Mike and Hal.

If BOINC underestimates SETI credits, this means that more and more people are less motivated to choose SETI respect to other more rewarding projects.

So, it is not only a problem of individual self-esteem or even narcissism. Either you create the perfect person, only interested in the Science and not in credit, and this person will never exist, or misgiven credits are damaging SETI.
People are going away from SETI, or not as many are coming as they could (more subtle to check).
Full stop. No question about this.

Then about Science.
Maybe right or not, maybe childish or not (but in small part research funds are given also taking into account this parameter, among many others and of course scientific soundness above all), also scientists have their cobblestones.

At this very moment the most used cobblestone is the h-index, which is linked to how may times your articles get cited by other colleagues worldwide. That is recognition, very much as credits work by us. And scientists also have their own strategies to maximise it, apart making good Science (of course).
Understandably, scientists do not put the h-index on top of their thoughts. They genuinely feed their curiosity and try to push forward their projects and Science in general.
And their professional recognition is not only about h-index. Many may have a good but not outstanding h-index and still enjoy very high reverence by the colleagues.
Because a single parameter cannot depict our lives. But it helps, if taken in moderate doses. Discussion is also going on in the scientific community as well as to what is the best metric of recognition (apart the fact that a good scientist will be always recognised as such, irrespective of this cold number).

Nevertheless, h-index has some of the problems that credit has in BOINC. Wider communities generate higher average h-indexes. Medical science generates higher h-index than Physical science. A bit like Collatz generates higher credits than SETI.

But, though this flaw, differences are not as wide as in BOINC.

Most importantly, people do not research in Medicine rather than in Physics because Medicine awards higher h-index!! ;-) :-)
This would be silly and unnatural.
And this is the same by us. We like SETI and we crunch SETI, (mostly) irrespective of credit.

But there are limits. In SETI differences can be even 50-folds, as Hal points out, between projects.
H-index (if we like to continue in this parallelism) can have a factor 2 between scientific areas (though it is a somewhat non-linear parameter and hence the meaning of factor 2 has to be taken with some care).

My main point is however that, apart from the usual technicalities, also a very serious environment such as scientific research (which is however very near to what we are trying to help here, aren't we?), tries to find its metrics, its cobblestones.

So why should we be ashamed to wish we had a better recognition parameter here (and, in some cases, we are ashamed to even have one, good or bad)?

And soundness of credit system is important, so that not only cresit, but in the end also computing resources get distributed among (donated to) projects in a more fair fashion.

Because people do care about Science, but also scientists crave for their cobblestones! ;-) :-)

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Message 1781663 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 14:55:54 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 15:04:00 UTC

OK. My two cents.

RAC on Seti is REALLY f+++ed up.
I once had an RAC of about 500 fronting about the same hardware I have today.
Different apps, different subject matter.
I can accept that.
But if I have my computers all assigned to doing the same work 24/7, why has my RAC dropped to the 300 range???? And it is CONTINUING to drop.

And I shall say again, I am here for the science. And I cannot say that I don't give a rat's arse about the credits...they mean something to someone who has put my amount of effort into it an suddenly they drift off into the woods.

I am a Seti man by heart and soul and kitties.

Will forever be.

I simply would like to see some adjustment here in Credit 'Really F===ed up' as compared to other projects.
If I got one credit for WU completed, that would not bother me.
As long as CREDITWHOREMONGER@HOME was not simply issuing a billion credits for the same amount of computing time I have spent.

And I am issuing this comment DIRECTLY at Dr. Anderson.
Ever look at the Boinstats sideboard???
Where people freaking sh=t their drawers about making several million creds a day...
Oh, that is soooooooooo scientifically significant.
If you want people to flock to YOUR baby. Seti.
Get your broken credit new program to work at least in somewhat a realistic fashion.
I am not one that is going to leave the Seti project because of this reckless programming or lack of any attempts at repairing it.
But, some are jumping ship, my friend.
You best take a look at what is happening here and fix it soon.

Meowreallypissedoffbutnotleaving.
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Message 1781680 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 15:41:25 UTC - in response to Message 1781663.  

Dear Mike,
you said it in your more direct way and with less metaphors and parallelisms, but in essence it really reflects my worried feelings (not just for my own credits, but for the projects themselves, both BOINC and SETI, well-being).

Crunch on!

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Message 1781683 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 16:01:38 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 16:20:15 UTC

Look at it this way, Dr. Anderson...and this is not a threat.
But...........
Let's say if I do not see some adjustment here.
And...
Let's say if this does not come about soon.

Let's just say I believe I could lead the highest ranking team here to do something other than Seti.
And I believe most of them would capitulate if I were to coerce them otherwheres.
And, Dr. Anderson, I believe I could do so.
If you do not believe me, just ask a few of them if they would follow me.

And that is a rather large chunk of processing.
We have significant impact on this project, and have contributed significant sums to support it.
Many of the current Seti servers we have supplied, or helped to fund.

So, one should listen to the ones that are your most ardent supporters.

I, of course, am speaking for myself at this time, and not for my team at large.
But. If MY voice is not heard, those of my teammates may well join me in a phrase or two...............and IF we are joined into a phrase, than you know what comes next.

The whole Alice's bit.........
You ever been on the group W bench, DA? You ever looked in the face of those who are or have been?
Most of us are over 50 people with nothing better to do than fill out your forms and play with the pencils.


Littering??

Meow, meow, and many more meows.

We'll just pause here until the song comes back around on my guitar...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Do you know how many dots that was?
Neither do I so.
Here is the moral of the story.

Join the army of the navy with the never of the marines.
And don't forget they have enujoined navyettes.
Which natrually, has nothing to do the the pause tactic that was used in the song, but which all politicians have used to avoid the truth since time began, and once I said that I realized that nothing I have ever said here will ever be read by or replied to by the head justice, Dr. Anderson and so I thougt that it might be nice to have one big pile of garbage instead of lots of little ones and so I just kinda thought along the same lines,k that one huge post instead of lots of little ones might do the trick.
Of course, reality never really mirrors dreams.
So, here I am crunching Seti with nobody really listening.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1781688 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 16:26:16 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 16:30:34 UTC

I wrote it on Facebook (SETI@Home group) yesterday.
My RAC is also dropping from over 8,500 to 7,350 (round about).

PC: 6,500 to 5,500
Mobilephone 1 (Android): 970 to 870
Mobilephone 2 (Android): 650 to 600

EDIT:
RAC changed overnight from 7,350 to 7,500
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Message 1781690 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 16:27:40 UTC

And all of us are awaiting some response from YOU, Dr. Anderson, on the subject at hand.

And expect one soon.

"You can get anything you want, but not at Seti's restaurant."

You do not want this repeated 100, 1000, or 100 million times.


How do you meow me NOW????
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1781692 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 16:37:30 UTC - in response to Message 1781683.  

Please keep calm about this, Mark. As it happens, David Anderson has just (within the last hour) made a change to the BOINC code, in an area where useful changes could be made to support Breakthrough Listen - but he's made it in the wrong direction, at the wrong place in the engineering system, in response to a temporary problem highlighted by one member of a different project.

David is like that: his knee-jerk reactions often make things worse, not better.

I've taken the opportunity to draw his attention to Breakthrough Listen problems (BOINC's infrastructure is unfit for purpose, and I've quoted one of Eric's posts to that effect). I will gladly raise the credit issue with him too, but we have to avoid antagonising him and driving him away again.

Many years ago, I was taught by a local politician never to push someone into the sort of corner where they give you the answer "no". This lunchtime, I heard your President give the same advice (with rather better oratory) to a 'town hall meeting' of future political activists in London: shout and protest as much as you like about your cause, but once you've got your target's attention, stop shouting, put away the placards, and sit down with them to work out a solution collectively.
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Message 1781696 - Posted: 23 Apr 2016, 16:48:00 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2016, 17:09:19 UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLDvl9qee9EWell, group W is where they put us all in the case of not adhering to the norm.
Or in my case, having a group of blood vessels in my head that could explode at any time.
And some people just think I avoided the service.

It hasn't happened yet....might not, or then...........it might.
Or it might in sixty seconds....
In either case I was discounted and sent to group W.

Quite a life, not knowing if any second I might be my last.[/url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLDvl9qee9E]Listen closely to the lyrics.

And yet I support a project with such unphathomable depth and possibilities.

I had heart problems this week.
It started to fillibrate for two hours.
First time ever it has happened.
Bump, bang bang bang.............nothing...................bump.........bang bang bang band...........nothing.............

I love knowing I could die at any given second./
And you wonder why I do what I do?

Any post might be my last.

Only advice the doctors could give me was...........
Something akin to thisWe have no answers.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message boards : Number crunching : Average Credit Decreasing?


 
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