Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?

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Message 1759060 - Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 17:33:32 UTC - in response to Message 1759050.  


If not guns it will be knives, bombs or something else.

...

Bombs aren't easy to get.

They teach it in high school Chemistry.

Maybe on US curriculum, but I've taught high school chemistry for over 10 years and bomb making has never come up. Besides, making a bomb would take effort. Angry teenagers and effort don't usually go hand in hand.

http://gizmodo.com/5831942/how-the-hell-did-a-17-year-old-get-the-materials-to-make-bombs
<ed>So your high school chem classes never discussed exothermic reactions?

Making a bomb is a different kettle of fish. I am sure the instructions are available on the internet, but its a bit more complicated than knowing exothermic reactions.

Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry? A small minority will be able to make a bomb that would actually detonate when its supposed to. They would not be taught that in high school chemistry, I am not sure what you think goes on in high school chemistry, but the leap from being taught the theory of something to being able to apply it is pretty big. I have enough trouble getting them to realise that the straight line graphs they learn about in maths is the same sort we use in science. Not to mention, most students don't even take senior chemistry.

How many of my students would able to make a bomb and hurt a lot of people? Some.

How many of my students would be able to use a gun to hurt and kill a lot of people? 100% of them.

You are right, a determined person can make a bomb, with a lot of effort and some smarts. The problem with guns is that they are so available and easy to use that it doesn't take a determined person.
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Message 1759063 - Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 17:45:33 UTC - in response to Message 1759060.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2016, 17:46:13 UTC


If not guns it will be knives, bombs or something else.

...

Bombs aren't easy to get.

They teach it in high school Chemistry.

Maybe on US curriculum, but I've taught high school chemistry for over 10 years and bomb making has never come up. Besides, making a bomb would take effort. Angry teenagers and effort don't usually go hand in hand.

http://gizmodo.com/5831942/how-the-hell-did-a-17-year-old-get-the-materials-to-make-bombs
<ed>So your high school chem classes never discussed exothermic reactions?

Making a bomb is a different kettle of fish. I am sure the instructions are available on the internet, but its a bit more complicated than knowing exothermic reactions.

Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry? A small minority will be able to make a bomb that would actually detonate when its supposed to. They would not be taught that in high school chemistry, I am not sure what you think goes on in high school chemistry, but the leap from being taught the theory of something to being able to apply it is pretty big. I have enough trouble getting them to realise that the straight line graphs they learn about in maths is the same sort we use in science. Not to mention, most students don't even take senior chemistry.

How many of my students would able to make a bomb and hurt a lot of people? Some.

How many of my students would be able to use a gun to hurt and kill a lot of people? 100% of them.

You are right, a determined person can make a bomb, with a lot of effort and some smarts. The problem with guns is that they are so available and easy to use that it doesn't take a determined person.

As I Posted:

We were just 'Street Kids'. Many went to jail. Most did not have 'Chemistry Classes'. Many did not complete High School. Some did not make their 21st Birthday.

We did not have 'The Internet'.

Explosives are easy.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana
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Message 1759064 - Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 17:45:47 UTC - in response to Message 1759060.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2016, 17:47:19 UTC

I could give you a " recipe " for making a explosive right now but im not that stupid to post it here ( you could find it with a serch engine and a couple of clicks of a mouse ) . It's not hard at all and dont take that long to make up either , mix it with a few nuts and bolts its deadly .
I knew how to do it when I was 14 so im fairly sure a schoolkid would be able to assemble and detonate if they really wanted to
As Clyde said explosives are easy to make and use
Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)
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Message 1759067 - Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 17:53:58 UTC - in response to Message 1759064.  

Yes explosives are very easy to make.
More easier than getting a gun with ammo.
Even though that in the Nordic countries we a lot of guns and rifles around.
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Message 1759080 - Posted: 24 Jan 2016, 18:45:40 UTC - in response to Message 1759060.  

Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry?
Perhaps that is most telling.

When I was in high school, several did build bombs, but not as destructive devices and this was before the Internet.
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Message 1759111 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 0:21:31 UTC - in response to Message 1759080.  

Have you met the average high school student, let alone tried to teach them chemistry?
Perhaps that is most telling.

When I was in high school, several did build bombs, but not as destructive devices and this was before the Internet.

..and I really doubt many here qualify as "average" high school students. The fact that you were interested enough to find your way here and to run BOINC on your computer, and take time to read and post on the forums already means this group is pretty self selecting and your experiences are not sufficient to make you experts on what the average high school student is capable of.

I have not come across one student who as ever made something with enough destructive capability to do what you are describing. I've had quite a few involved in stabbings. Most survived.

This idea that somehow bombs are just as easy to get hold of and use than guns in nonsense. The idea that bomb making is being taught in schools is nonsense. Its true that detailed instructions are available on the internet...but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings?
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Message 1759119 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 1:04:12 UTC - in response to Message 1759111.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 1:04:52 UTC

but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings?

It's probably due to easy access to weapons in many countries that school shootings occurs.
But how can any gun law protect us from school shootings?
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Message 1759123 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 1:31:58 UTC - in response to Message 1758951.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 1:34:51 UTC

Unfortunately, the God of Abraham teaches the opposite.

It may have been bred into our species long before we were homo sapiens.

Yes, I think so. Competition for resources / reproduction. It seems only in Sci-Fi worlds like Star Trek where resources are free (replicators) that there is little conflict between humans. Tearing that portion of our brain stem out isn't going to be easy and may not be desirable long term.

So, after 16000+ posts, there's something we can agree upon, sadly.


And thus: Whatever named God (and gods) were wrought in Man's image and ways.

Religions yet need to evolve to make our world a kinder and sustainable place. However, is there still very much a 'fight' between all religions? And our world and all people be damned?

Was the Star Trek Federation idea a hopeful prosperous role model that contrasted with the destructive Klingon-style reality we have still?...


Better and more widespread good education is needed yet. The balance is that when you know how to make bombs and mass destruction for yourself, you should be already educated well enough to feel strongly that there are better and more positive ways to go.

Death and destruction is for the ignorant and 'oppressed'.


Removing self-destructive tools is only part of the story but that is an important start to give everyone a chance to learn better things.

Here's hoping,

All in our only one world,
Martin
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Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1759125 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 1:36:28 UTC - in response to Message 1759119.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 1:37:02 UTC

... But how can any gun law protect us from school shootings?

Remove the guns and ammunition in the first place.


There are better ways for a culture to prosper. No guns and "show off" knives needed.

All in our only one world,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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Message 1759128 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 1:55:31 UTC - in response to Message 1759111.  

and I really doubt many here qualify as "average" high school students.
With 1500 students in my class, it should have been large enough to be an average class, as I said we had several bomb makers, high explosive not just pyro stuff like black powder. Perhaps where you teach isn't average? Perhaps you don't see them when they are motivated?

This idea that somehow bombs are just as easy to get hold of and use than guns in nonsense.
Actually you are right, they are not equally easy to obtain. They are far easier to obtain than guns, even in gun crazy America.

The idea that bomb making is being taught in schools is nonsense.
Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught.

Its true that detailed instructions are available on the internet...but how many school bombings have we had and how many school shootings?
Well, quite a few in reality. Usually the bombers blow up lockers at night and not people in the day. Doesn't make national news. The shooters want to look in the eyes of their victims, the bombers are interested in vandalism.
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Message 1759134 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 2:27:03 UTC - in response to Message 1759128.  

Snort. Chemistry class either starts with bombs or brewing and the other is the next subject. Now I understand that isn't what the chem teacher uses as examples, but it is the reaction type being taught.

Simply not true. The theory and the actual application is a different. Its so easy to mess up without a specific recipe that will cause the right rate of reaction and controlled detonation that you are talking about, and that is not taught in schools, and not all students take chemistry at the level require to figure it out from what is taught in schools. They are also less likely to be the ones that feel so hard done by by the world that they need to kill people.

If bombs really were the threat you think they are, we'd have the president making speeches about bombs in schools. But he's not. You seem to be clutching at straws to defend a ridiculous position.
Well, quite a few in reality. Usually the bombers blow up lockers at night and not people in the day. Doesn't make national news. The shooters want to look in the eyes of their victims, the bombers are interested in vandalism.

I think you are confusing incendiary devices and small explosives with bombs that could maim and kill in the way a gun can. You also agree that the type of person who wants to kill people is more likely to use gun than build a bomb.

Even if you blow up a locker in the day, you still will not cause the casualties that a shooter walking through a school with a gun can cause. I also doubt that many bombs are set off in lockers. Unless you thinking of firecrackers thrown down toilets.
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Message 1759150 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 3:15:39 UTC - in response to Message 1758841.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 3:16:15 UTC

Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North.

Canadian school shooting

This is so heartbreaking. Its in an area of Canada where there are more guns because families have them for hunting. Not sure yet what the details of this case is, but as a teacher I am well aware that one day, an angry teenager may get access to a gun and I will be in the position of having to protect my students. I will probably end up dead and leave my sons without a mother.

We have to practice drills for an armed shooting in the school.

Guns should not be so easily available. I don't feel safe, and I don't think my children are safe.

This gun obsession has to stop.

Are you not being a little OTT on your reaction to gun ownership in communities like this. If one lives or has business outside a town in this area it could be carrying a gun is an essential requirement. The Government of Saskatchewan lists bears,cougars and wolves as problem wildlife. http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/wildlife
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Message 1759152 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 3:25:41 UTC - in response to Message 1759150.  

Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North.

Canadian school shooting

This is so heartbreaking. Its in an area of Canada where there are more guns because families have them for hunting. Not sure yet what the details of this case is, but as a teacher I am well aware that one day, an angry teenager may get access to a gun and I will be in the position of having to protect my students. I will probably end up dead and leave my sons without a mother.

We have to practice drills for an armed shooting in the school.

Guns should not be so easily available. I don't feel safe, and I don't think my children are safe.

This gun obsession has to stop.

Are you not being a little OTT on your reaction to gun ownership in communities like this. If one lives or has business outside a town in this area it could be carrying a gun is an essential requirement. The Government of Saskatchewan lists bears,cougars and wolves as problem wildlife. http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/wildlife

I'm just pointing out a correlation between areas where there are a lot of guns and the amount of mass shootings. If people do own guns there should be strict laws on how they are kept and who can have them.
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Message 1759167 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 4:19:13 UTC - in response to Message 1759152.  

If people do own guns there should be strict laws on how they are kept and who can have them.
A sheet of paper with a law written on it does not stop a bullet.
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Message 1759187 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 16:49:04 UTC - in response to Message 1759152.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 16:49:48 UTC

Oh dear, America's issues working it's way further North.

Canadian school shooting

This is so heartbreaking. Its in an area of Canada where there are more guns because families have them for hunting. Not sure yet what the details of this case is, but as a teacher I am well aware that one day, an angry teenager may get access to a gun and I will be in the position of having to protect my students. I will probably end up dead and leave my sons without a mother.

We have to practice drills for an armed shooting in the school.

Guns should not be so easily available. I don't feel safe, and I don't think my children are safe.

This gun obsession has to stop.

Are you not being a little OTT on your reaction to gun ownership in communities like this. If one lives or has business outside a town in this area it could be carrying a gun is an essential requirement. The Government of Saskatchewan lists bears,cougars and wolves as problem wildlife. http://www.environment.gov.sk.ca/wildlife

I'm just pointing out a correlation between areas where there are a lot of guns and the amount of mass shootings. If people do own guns there should be strict laws on how they are kept and who can have them.

Most mass shootings are done with automatic or semi-automatic weapons. Most hunting rifles, are bolt or lever action, and shotguns do not fall into the category. Although I do see semi-automatic rifles being sold in this sector, I would say people who use them or need to use them, need to learn to shoot better and then they wouldn't need them.

In this particular case I think we need to wait and see if they can find out the reasons why he shot his two brothers and two school teachers. It is does not seem to fall into the "mass shootings" definition we see in other cases where anything that can or does move gets multiple rounds fired at them.
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Message 1759241 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 19:07:28 UTC

For your enlightenment......
Peruse the graphs.
Rod Martin editorial.
"The secret o' life is enjoying the passage of time." 1977, James Taylor
"With cats." 2018, kittyman

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Message 1759248 - Posted: 25 Jan 2016, 19:39:03 UTC - in response to Message 1759241.  
Last modified: 25 Jan 2016, 19:39:41 UTC

For your enlightenment......
Peruse the graphs.
Rod Martin editorial.

I draw the conclusion that prohibit alcohol and drugs are dangerous from those stats.
But we all know that alcohol and drugs don't mix with weapons.

Stats of mass shootings however seems to increase according to other reasons and sources.
Not only in the US.
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Message 1759298 - Posted: 26 Jan 2016, 0:02:00 UTC - in response to Message 1759248.  

For your enlightenment......
Peruse the graphs.
Rod Martin editorial.

I draw the conclusion that prohibit alcohol and drugs are dangerous from those stats.
But we all know that alcohol and drugs don't mix with weapons.

Stats of mass shootings however seems to increase according to other reasons and sources.
Not only in the US.

Yes, mass shooting are up, all other homicide shootings are down way way down. The only shooting stat that is up is suicide. Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue. It isn't a gun issue at all.

As to the must take them all away crowd, they all stuck their fingers in their ears, covered their eyes and screamed la la la la la la la ... rather than allow actual provable statistics to enter their brain.
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Message 1759317 - Posted: 26 Jan 2016, 1:23:23 UTC - in response to Message 1759298.  

Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue.

All that takes is money and the will to do it and the pols don't have the balls to do what needs to be done.
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Message 1759327 - Posted: 26 Jan 2016, 1:45:49 UTC - in response to Message 1759317.  

Perhaps we should make suicide pills available? America has a crazy control, er mental health issue.

All that takes is money and the will to do it and the pols don't have the balls to do what needs to be done.

Yes, because if these persons became contributing members of society they might pay taxes and resent the high tax rate imposed on the middle class and not be beholden to the government lifeline spigot. Translation, they might switch from democrat to republican.
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Message boards : Politics : Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?


 
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